Hacia una clasificacion consistente de P y R I

[Juan Pablo Miri]

Subo al foro esta imagen para despejar la duda sobre en que sistema esta impreso este sello.
Segun la catalogación del Circulo de Proceres y Riquezas existe un solo sello impreso en offset y en papel granulado horizontal, si mal no recuerdo.

Consultado a todos los socios de la Peña Filatelica de Mar del Plata a la que asisto, quedaron muchas dudas y por eso la consulta al foro.

A simple vista parece un tipografiado lo que seria imposible ya que fue impreso en offset unicamente y la otra es que se trate de una impresion empastada o muy recargada. Pero nunca escuchamos de que se pueda recargar de tinta el offset.

Soy todo oidos.

Gracias

Juan Pablo Miri

[rubiera]

Juan Pablo:

He notado esta variedad en el 3c antes, pero no es causa de un tipo diferente de impresion. Todos estos sellos fueron impresos en offset. Lo que si creo ocurrio es que al ser un sello comun, se imprimio con la plancha sucia o con diferentes tintas. Considero el de la derecha una variedad de color/impersion, pero es offset.



saludos

tony

[Rein]

Tony,

the 2p is in bi-coloured offset-litho, a shift of the grey-blue centre cannot give a double impression unless the rubber offset cylinder had been "shaking" which does occur.... The ink-flow in the direction of printing would not have shown a flow in more than one direction....

[Juan Pablo Miri]

Gracias Tony, si de que fue impreso en offset no hay duda, para mi que es un exceso de tinta

Salu2

JP

[Rein]

Tony,

A difficulty we have here is that the catalogues do not tell us about the sheet-sizes! Neither the counter sheet nor the printer's sheet. Tenorio Casal mentions a 800 sheet split up in sheets of 200???

200 = 2x 10x10 - 2 counter sheets on top of each other?

As to the cylinders for the reel-fed press for stamp printing in that period we should bear in mind that the axis of the cylinder was usually between 30 and 50cm long with a circumference of upto 60cm! Sheets of 800 were not possible for these presses... Flat plates do not have that restriction.

Can you supply me with the sheet-sizes of the PyR set???

[rubiera]

Rein:

flat plates, according to Deluca, and the book has pictures of these,

The small format stamps are on sheets of 200, 10 rows of 20, continuous (there is no space in the middle of the sheet).
The large format stamps are on sheets of 100, 10 rows of 10, continuous (there is no space in the middle of the sheet).

Tenorio mentions sizes for the typographed issues, but I have not seen pictures of these.

----------------------------------

para las planchas offset, segun Deluca, y con fotos incluidas en su libro,

Los sellos Proceres fueron impresos en hojas de 200, 10 hileras con 20 sellos, y sin espacio en el medio de la hoja.
Los sellos Riquezas fueron impresos en hojas de 100, 10 hileras con 10 sellos, y sin espacio en el medio de la hoja.

Tenorio menciona las dimensiones de los tipografiados, pero yo no he visto fotos de estos.

saludos

tony

[Rein]

Tony,


a row is a horizontal row I assume. If a row has a width of 20 stamps, then in the case of the reel-fed printed stamps, the row is too wide - more than 50cm - for a narrow-width cyilnder!

[rubiera]

Rein,

Yes, by row I mean horizontal row. The width of the paper reel for the small format stamps is that of the 10 stamps in a column and not the 20 stamps in a row.

Si, hilera se refiere a la direccion horizontal. El ancho del rollo de papel coincide con los 10 sellos de cada columna y no con los 20 sellos de cada hilera.

saludos

tony

[rubiera]

Tony, si te fijas no es tan asi, en mi post el sello que es mas largo corresponde al tipo II....

Creo que tengo restos de plancha de este sello, voy a ver si la diferencia de tamaño se da en una posicion especifica de plancha.

Saludos
Luis

Luis,

Te debo una respuesta sobre este sello. Quiero buscarlo con fechas para determinar si este es el impreso en 1938. Me imagino que este sello tipo II largo es raro?

saludos

tony

[Rein]

Rein,

Yes, by row I mean horizontal row. The width of the paper reel for the small format stamps is that of the 10 stamps in a column and not the 20 stamps in a row.

Si, hilera se refiere a la direccion horizontal. El ancho del rollo de papel coincide con los 10 sellos de cada columna y no con los 20 sellos de cada hilera.

saludos

tony

That is 10 stamps next to each other [in a horizontal row] and 20 stamps on top of each other [in a vertical column]??

To me a row is always horizontal and a column vertical

[rubiera]

Rein,

Did not mean to confuse you, the small format sheet is a rectangle and the narrow side is the 10 rows that define the width of the paper roll and the wide side is the 20 continuous columns.

hope that makes sense

let me get a scan out of Deluca

-----

Espero no haberle confundido, la hoja de los Proceres es rectangular, el lado mas estrecho es el de los 10 hileras, la cual define el ancho del rollo de papel, y el lado mas ancho son los 20 sellos continuos en column.

espero que esto haga sentido

dejeme escanear en Deluca

saludos


tony

[Rein]

Rein,

Did not mean to confuse you, the small format sheet is a rectangle and the narrow side is the 10 rows that define the width of the paper roll and the wide side is the 20 continuous columns.

hope that makes sense

let me get a scan out of Deluca


saludos


tony

Sorry Tony,

it still confuses me: the small sized stamps of the PyR I measure 24.0x30.4mm - the format is "portrait" NOT "landscape".


Do we have a sheet that has 10 stamps next to each other [in a horizontal row that is 10 stamps wide] and 20 stamps on top of each other [in a vertical column that is 20 stamps high] - so 20 rows of 10 stamps??

OR

Do we have a sheet that has 20 stamps next to each other [in a horizontal row that is 20 stamps wide] and 10 stamps on top of each other [in a vertical column that is 10 stamps high] - so 10 rows of 20 stamps??

Rein

[rubiera]

Rein:

This one is it:

"Do we have a sheet that has 20 stamps next to each other [in a horizontal row that is 20 stamps wide] and 10 stamps on top of each other [in a vertical column that is 10 stamps high] - so 10 rows of 20 stamps??"

tony

[Rein]

Tony,

this means that in the sheet-fed offset-litho for the small size the paper reel is some 53cm wide [22 stamps wide] in most cases, with a few exceptions when the reel is only some 36cm wide [the 1E4's a.o.; 12 stamps high]....

For the typographed stamps sheet-fed this may be no problem, but for the reel-fed printed 53cm is more than was usual for the Goebel presses in those days.

[rubiera]

Rein,

I thought the width of the reel was same as the narrower side (11 stamps)?

tony