P & R I: 5c Moreno Typographed papers

[Rein]

Me decidí a acomodar los Morenos y comencé separando los offset de los tipo. Muy pocos offset y muchísimos tipografiados.
Comencé por los cuadros que son más fáciles de mirar las filigranas y cuando llegué a este, al colocarle bencina... no veo nada. Busco sin filigrana en el catálogo de Pettigiani y no aparece. La miro nuevamente y noto que tiene filigrana, moviéndola a la luz, se notan los círculos y los rayos del sol, pero con bencina NADA!.
Miro las fechas y fue utilizado en 1944. En el catálogo encuentro el tizado norteamericano y al final aparece filigrana blanca (albina) vista sobre fondo negro. Mi escritorio es negro, pero igual no la veo, así que la escaneé sobre fondo blanco y negro (sobre el negro se nota mucho más), pero con bencina no se ve. Alguien me puede decir si es el tizado norteamericano rayado granulado 800 JBk. Tengo problemas con los papeles, pues poseo otro cuadro con un tizado grueso bien blanco que se pliega sobre su eje vertical y no se si es el 800 JC. Me ayudan please?.








"La muerte está tan segura de su triunfo que nos da toda una vida de ventaja"

The 1943 coated paper with an orthogonal watermark and a symmetrical paper mesh; density 30/16!! According to Bardi TI2!



Count the number of red lines and you will wind up with approximately 50 lines per stamp! Height = 30mm, 16 lines / cm => 48 lines / stamp!

to be continued ....

[CastañoOcre]

LINES PER CENTIMETER in RAYADO HORIZONTAL

Rein mentioned a few posts before:
"enlarge the single stamps and have a look at the back! You will find about 16 horizontal lines per cm! Some 50 alltogether for the 30mm high stamp! That is characteristic for the 1943 Tizado!!! All other types when showing horizontal lines will have about 60 lines per 30mm! "

And in the last one mentioned:
"The 1943 coated paper with an orthogonal watermark and a symmetrical paper mesh; density 30/16!! According to Bardi TI2!"

How many horizontal lines has paper JC(TI.5)???
I find very difficult organizing 5c Moreno Coated Paper stamps.

Pettigiani mentioned in the table of his book (pag.61) that the wire mesh of papers JA (TI.1), JB (TI.2) and JC(TI.5) are "rayado horizontal".
Are lines per centimeter the same for these 3 papers??

Anyone know this??

[Rein]

LINES PER CENTIMETER in RAYADO HORIZONTAL

Rein mentioned a few posts before:
"enlarge the single stamps and have a look at the back! You will find about 16 horizontal lines per cm! Some 50 alltogether for the 30mm high stamp! That is characteristic for the 1943 Tizado!!! All other types when showing horizontal lines will have about 60 lines per 30mm! "

And in the last one mentioned:
"The 1943 coated paper with an orthogonal watermark and a symmetrical paper mesh; density 30/16!! According to Bardi TI2!"

How many horizontal lines has paper JC(TI.5)???
I find very difficult organizing 5c Moreno Coated Paper stamps.

Pettigiani mentioned in the table of his book (pag.61) that the wire mesh of papers JA (TI.1), JB (TI.2) and JC(TI.5) are "rayado horizontal".

Are lines per centimeter the same for these 3 papers??

Anyone know this??

Read my review of Pettigani's Manual:

viewtopic.php?f=144&t=4798&start=51

I am sorry to say it again, but the Tizado's are in a mess with Guillermo....

TI 1, TI 3, TI 5 and TI 6 have a density of 30/20;
TI 2 has a density of 30/16;
TI 4 has a density of 24/22.

TI 1, TI 2 and TI 4 have a symmetrical paper wire and can NOT be compared with the "rayado" as they are all "granulado"!
TI 3, TI 5 and TI 6 have an Asymmetrical paper wire and can be called "Rayado", but never "granulado" ....

I do agree with you that it is not easy to sort out the coated 5c Moreno! Best way is to find good dated copies; everything before 1943 is TI 1 - the dark brown colour may help you - , everything from 1943 onwards may be TI 2, but you have to check the 16 lines criterium!

to be continued ...

[CastañoOcre]

OK. I see it !! Thank you Rein
One more question:

"TI 3, TI 5 and TI 6 have an Asymmetrical paper wire"
That means I should NOT see the diagonal lines in any of these 3 papers that are seen by
looking from one corner just to almost the opposite one (aprox. the fourth teeth counting from the corner).
These lines are seen in the back of the stamp from right to left and from left to right only in the "granulados" with the same angle.
Right?? Or should I still expect seeing diagonal lines in 5c. Moreno's T5 papers?

I have hundreds of 5c Moreno stamps.
I'm looking each one with bencine and I note that shape of letter "A" of RA, vignette transparency, round or oval suns, kind of rays are NOT strict parameters. RA are not equal even in the same stamp in most of cases !!
I'm getting addicted to bencine and still can't be sure I'm doing well.
Must find another way to have a proper and healthy way of classification

Guillermo

[Rein]

OK. I see it !! Thank you Rein
One more question:

"TI 3, TI 5 and TI 6 have an Asymmetrical paper wire"
That means I should NOT see the diagonal lines in any of these 3 papers that are seen by looking from one corner just to almost the opposite one (aprox. the fourth teeth counting from the corner). These lines are seen in the back of the stamp from right to left and from left to right only in the "granulados" with the same angle. Right?? Or should I still expect seeing diagonal lines in 5c. Moreno's T5 papers?

I have hundreds of 5c Moreno stamps. I'm looking each one with bencine and I note that shape of letter "A" of RA, vignette transparency, round or oval suns, kind of rays are NOT strict parameters. RA are not equal even in the same stamp in most of cases !!

I'm getting addicted to bencine and still can't be sure I'm doing well. Must find another way to have a proper and healthy way of classification

Guillermo

Guillermo,

you may still see diagonal lines but the lines have different angles, i.e. -60 and +70 instead of -60 and +60 :

symmetrical:



asymmetrical:



- the black line indicating the direction of paper
- the blue lines the virtual diagonals of the mesh
- the yellow triangle formed by the hearts of 3 suns
- the red line the distance from the heart of the suns within the line of AЯ
- the green line the distance between 2 identical lines of AЯ
- the violet lines the diameters of the Sun

to be continued ....

[Alejandro Pettovello]

Hello rein,

I understand all coloured lines but the blue one..

[CastañoOcre]

Estimado Alejandro

Hace un tiempo me planteaba lo mismo con las líneas azules de Rein.
Pero están perfectas, es cuestión de acostumbrar el ojo.
Dos puntos claves por ejemplo para ver esas líneas en el scan de asimétrico (el simétrico es claramente visible):

1.- A unos pocos milímetros hacia la derecha del punto de cruce de las diagonales azules se puede ver un sector de surcos claros y oscuros. Con facilidad se ven 5 oscuros que tienen inclinación hacia la izquierda.

2.- Justo encima de la línea roja vertical puedes ver los surcos con inclinación hacia la derecha. Si te concentras podrás
ver que la máxima claridad para ver esos surcos está en el sector de los rayos que salen hacia arriba-izquierda del sol que está a la derecha superior de dicha linea roja.

Hay muchos otros lugares que muestran claramente tales diagonales.
A mi me costó mucho acostumbrar el ojo... pero se puede ver.
Espero que te sirva mi indicaciones.

Saludos

Guillermo

[Rein]

Alejandro and Guillermo,

it is also a good thing - in fact I do it automatically and that is why I do not repeat this instruction all the time - is to turn your head [or the stamp] so the virtual blue lines will be horizontal!






to be continued ...

[Rein]

Tony,

this is type II! How about the first type???? Do copies with "Muestra" exist????

saludos, Rein

[rubiera]

Rein,

The type I should exist, but I don't have one.

Tony

[Rein]

The 5c Moreno in typography - type 2 - on Wiggins Teape paper with parallel watermark, symmetrical paper mesh and density 30/20; Brown fibers!!!!












to be continued ....

[Rein]

The 5c Moreno in typography - type 2 - on Wiggins Teape paper with parallel watermark, symmetrical paper mesh and density 30/20; Brown fibers!!!!












to be continued ....

[Rein]

The 5c Moreno in typography - type 2 - on Wiggins Teape paper with parallel watermark, symmetrical paper mesh and density 30/20; Brown fibers!!!!












to be continued ....

[Rein]

The 5c Moreno in typography - type 2 - on Wiggins Teape paper with parallel watermark, symmetrical paper mesh and density 30/20; Brown fibers!!!!










to be continued ....