Foro de Filatelia Argentina

15c Martin Guemes 'rotura debajo de la A de ARGENTINA'

Estos dos bloques tienen esta variedad de plancha. Por lo poco que la encuentro me imagino que solo hay unos cuantos en la plancha. Estos dos no son identicos a juzgar por las diferencias en los sellos y las sobrecargas.

Detalle de esta variedad:



Sello superior izquierdo es la variedad en este bloque.



Sello superior derecho es la variedad en este bloque.



Aqui esta una comparacion de la distancia entre las sobrecargas.



La L de OFICIAL es diferente.

15c Martin Guemes 1L 'I de TINA ancha'

Por lo comunmente que la encruento, esta variedad creo pertenece a los cliches maestros usados para confeccionar la plancha. Siempre la encuentro con la misma variedad a la derecha: un espacio en el marco a la derecha de la ultima A de ARGENTINA. Con la excepcion del bloque siguiente, en la cual no encuentro otra variedad, en todos los otros bloques tambien encuento otra variedad con espacio en el marco a la derecha de la ultima A de ARGENTINA inmediatamente debajo de la variedad 'TINA.'

This variety, by how commonly I find it, is most likely a master die plate variety. I always find the 'Tina' plate variety with a stamp to the right with a small gap on the inner line next to the last A of ARGENTINA. Except for what seems to be an early printing, represented by the first block I show here, I also find a similar 'gap' plate flaw on the stamp below the 'TINA' stamp.

'Tina' Sello superior izquierdo



Detalle 'tina'



Sello superior derecho



Sello inferior izquierdo



'Tina' Sello superior derecho



Sello superior derecho



Sello inferior derecho

15c Martin Guemes 2C 'I de TINA ancha'

Aqui muestro una seleccion de bloques del 15cMG2C-SO con esta variedad.

Superior izquierdo es 'Tina'





Superior derecho es 'Tina'









Inferior izquierdo es 'Tina'





Inferior derecho es 'Tina'

Comparacion del 15cMG-SO 'TINA'

Estas comparaciones muestran diferencias en variedades adicionales a la variedad 'TINA' y de las sobrecargas.

Tony,

having found several master die characteristics is great! But their very character implies that they occur several times within a sheet and then may coincide with different characteristics of the offset-litho plate for Servico Oficial that could be laid-out quite differently ....

Rein,

What you mention makes sense. I mostly wanted to show the TINA variety. We would need many more specimens to determine how many of this variety there are on the plate and also how many separate settings of 'Servicio Oficial' were used (I know there are at least two for the small format stamps).

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Lo que menciona (que esta muestra no responde las pregunatas claves conclusivamente) tiene sentido. Queria demostrar la variedad 'TINA.' Necesitamos muchos mas de estos sellos para demostrar cuantos cliches con esta variedad existen en la plancha, y cuantas planchas de la sobrecarga existen (por lo menos dos en los Proceres).

saludos

tony

Tony,

I am on holidays now in Poland for 3 weeks so my reactions will be modest for the next few weeks

Rein,

Enjoy!

tony

How many watermarks are out there????

According to D.A. Bardi (2008):

- Granulado vertical - M = direction of paper horizontal + line of AЯ verticall??
- Tela - M = direction of paper vertical + line of AЯ verticall??
- R.R. difuso - m = straight rays; symmetrical paper wire; wire side at the front; direction of paper vertical + line of AЯ horizontal??
- R.R. nitido - m = straight rays;a-symmetrical paper wire; wire side at the back; direction of paper vertical + line of AЯ horizontal??

The following 2 stamps have an a-symmetrical paper wire; direction of paper is vertical; the watermark is orthogonal with the line of AЯ horizontal (Bardi's "m") so this should be R.R. nitido! Easy ain't it???

But both stamps have a different distance between the lines of Sun+AЯ:

the left stamp has 15mm, the right stamp 17.5mm:





Measuring the distances betwen the Suns we do NOT measure the distance between the outlines - as told by J.R. Merlo in his article on the Sun+AЯ watermarks - but from heart to heart! Having enough lines to measure we will find 3.0cm (vertically) between every second line (the 1Ex and 1Lx watermarks) or 3.5cm (the 2X watermarks).....

The 15c M. Güemes in blue will give us some problems!





Both RR difuso and RR nitido have "m" in the Tabla-General - that is the line of AЯ will be parallel to the short side of the stamp (D.A. Bardi's notation!). What is the difference that we can recognize????

What I have said before and probably will have to repeat it time and again is the rough surface (being heavily felted) of both the back and the front of the Nitido version plus its white colour is one condition, the other is the a-symmetrical paper wire. Of course, the rays are so-called "straight" but that is not the proof! Important is also the distance between the 2 identical lines of AЯ [3.5mm instead of 3.0mm; or at least more than 1.5mm between 2 consecutive lines of AЯ]. And as mentioned above both measurements can be found in the Nitidos!

A conditio sine qua non for the Difuso version is the symmetrical paper wire!


Difuso:

Cual es la diferencia entre filigrana nitida o difusa??? Es por ser vista a simple vista? o hay algun otro aspecto para diferenciarlas?
Tengo estos sellos y la verdad estoy perdido...

What is the difference between watermark shrarp or diffuse??? Could you see at first look? or is there some other aspect to differentiate them?
I have these stamps and I'm lost ...
Saludos
Sergio

Sergio,

the nitido is always clearly visible with the naked eye, has got a whitish apparance and the watermark forms a darker area in the stamp - always seen from the back!

The difuso is not visible at first sight with the naked eye

See my threads:

http://www.filateliaargentina.com.ar/fo ... f=2&t=2212

Sergio,

Tambien te recomiendo que veas los 20c Toro que tienes por que en este caso el sello se conoce en los dos papeles RR y el difuso de 1943 tiene un color diferente al nitido de 1949.

saludos

tony

Espero no estar posteando mal... si es así mis disculpas Nestor.
Mi pregunta es si este cuadro se puede considerar una variedad.
Aparete los sellos parecen no estar centrados con respecto al corte.

Saludos.
Mariano

Navajo escribió:Espero no estar posteando mal... si es así mis disculpas Nestor.
Mi pregunta es si este cuadro se puede considerar una variedad.
Aparete los sellos parecen no estar centrados con respecto al corte.

Saludos.
Mariano

Consulta Mariano,
Tanto la Mancha superior en la "CA" de República, como la pupila "dilatada", están en el mismo sello ? o son dos sellos distintos dentro del cuadro ?

Saludos !!