CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz

[Rein]

Rodolfo,

when Carlos Gomez is preparing this great catalogue and using codes for the various types of paper he must have had a complete picture of let's say the uncoated imported papers numbering them from 1 to 37!

Why not immediately give us ALL the descriptions of ALL types of paper!?!? Have must have had it ready for ages!!!!

Can I not criticize that lack of publication????

I then started to point out that the first uncoated imported paper nr 1 could NOT have been the Mate Aleman used in 1911 for the Sarmiento stamps!

Prove me wrong, please!!!

saludos, Rein

[leonardoleidi]

when Carlos Gomez is preparing this great catalogue and using codes for the various types of paper he must have had a complete picture of let's say the uncoated imported papers numbering them from 1 to 37!

Why not immediately give us ALL the descriptions of ALL types of paper!?!? Have must have had it ready for ages!!!!

Can I not criticize that lack of publication????

I then started to point out that the first uncoated imported paper nr 1 could NOT have been the Mate Aleman used in 1911 for the Sarmiento stamps!

Prove me wrong, please!!!

saludos, Rein

I hope, the next update of the catalogue, it shows all type of papers!! It will be very interesting!!!!!!!!

[Rein]

A watermark gets applied to the not yet finished paper just before it leaves the long wire....

A controll-mark gets apllied later on on the already finished paper.

In both cases we can have such "mark" apllied to the printing sheet a few times just to brand the sheet OR the "mark" gets applied so every stamp will received some part of it or more....

The 1892 definitives received a controll mark - sol chico - on unwatermarked paper supplied by Zárate! The 1896 definitives had the watermark sol grande in paper of a German origin....

The various "imprints" or "brands" like "A&W", "Stiller&Laas` etc. are not meant to be seen on every stamp and do not give the type of paper the status of a watermarked paper. It can be compared to the imprint of the Banknote Companies we sometimes see just too close to the very stamp and hence having part of it inside the stamp! This is a very collectible item but does NOT make it a separate stamp item. They should be catalogized as a variety of the unwatermarked series!

Do we know whether they are watermarks????

LaCroix Frères - watermark or controll-mark?
Stiller & Laas - watermark or controll-mark?
etc....

A&W - watermark AND controll-mark???

Does anyone has any idea?????

to be continued......

[Rein]

I sincerely hope that Carlos Gomez does NOT fall into the trap assigning separate numbers of type of paper to these brands!

Just as we do not need to assign separate types to the various types of paper having the blue fibers [ALPAMIJ/Loeber] or brown fibers [Wiggins Teape].

These fibers ought to be mentioned and assigned a place in the Catalogo!

So far, Gomez has failed to do so for the commemoratives on "Tela"!

Should he be not able to read this Foro, then let at least someone in his vicinity tell him about the findings published here!!!!

Not letting him know is harmful for Argentina Philately just as it was harmful that Pettigiani did not get notified in time or if he was did not really care for it!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

I sincerely hope that Carlos Gomez does NOT fall into the trap assigning separate numbers of type of paper to these brands!

Just as we do not need to assign separate types to the various types of paper having the blue fibers [ALPAMIJ/Loeber] or brown fibers [Wiggins Teape].

These fibers ought to be mentioned and assigned a place in the Catalogo!

So far, Gomez has failed to do so for the commemoratives on "Tela"!

Should he be not able to read this Foro, then let at least someone in his vicinity tell him about the findings published here!!!!

Not letting him know is harmful for Argentina Philately just as it was harmful that Pettigiani did not get notified in time or if he was did not really care for it!

to be continued ....

In the latest update of the Catalogo Gz it seems the author has at last discovered the Foro! Several remarks posted here have been taken at heart!! I will get back to that later on....

Otra cosa es la falta de ética de un colega de tomar en forma burlona el nombre asignado a un papel, el
cual tiene menor espesor de encapado, como fue explicado en definición según su superficie. El papel en
cuestión es el denominado SEMI-ENCAPADO, el prefijo semi significa, según el diccionario, medio, parcial
o casi, por lo que asemejarlo a un semi embarazo nos parece al menos, impropio.

Google Translate!

Another thing is the lack of ethics by a colleague to take derisively the name assigned to a paper, which has a lesser thickness of coating, as explained in definition depending on their surface. The paper in question is called SEMI-ENCAPADO, the prefix semi means, according to the dictionary, medium, partial or almost, thus to compare it with a semi pregnancy seems at least inappropriate

Carlos Gomez got stung here really bad!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

PROLOGO
El grupo Gz comenzó en 1999 a realizar sus estudios sobre papeles y variedades de nuestros sellos postales. Para ello, en primera instancia se recurrió a los distintos y diversos artículos escritos sobre el tema, entre otros Antonio Deluca, Walter Bose, Jorge del Mazo, Gerardo Hickethier, José R. Merlo, Agustín Espejo, Guillermo Solari, Guillermo A. Pettigiani y muchos más. Como asi también a los catálogos especializados de V. Kneitschel '58 y '74, Klass '70 y G. Jalil '09. Pero lo mas importante, lo que nos despertó la curiosidad por lo desconocido, lo que hay detrás de cada sello, fueron las clases de papeles dadas generosamente en SOFIRA por el Sr. Merlo y el Sr. Williams que nos enseñaron a retirar los velos que cubren los sellos, sus tramas, sus distintas filigranas, en las dos series mas ricas en papeles que son San Martín con y sin punto y Próceres y Riquezas I. Siempre estaremos agradecidos por todo el conocimiento que nos trasfirieron desinteresadamente.
Gracias a todo lo estudiado por los grandes filatelistas y haciendo base en ellos y con la investigación de miles de sellos, pudimos llegar a descubrir y listar los papeles en todos los sellos conmemorativos y ordinarios. Obviamente el trabajo realizado no es el definitivo dado que cada tanto se encuentra un papel distinto en algún sello.

La idea de exponerlo al alcance de todos, es en primer lugar, que el esfuerzo no es de una persona ni de un grupo, sino de todos los nombrados anteriormente y de muchos filatelistas investigadores. En segundo lugar es para los que quieren comenzar a coleccionar mas de una de cada una, sabiendo la diferencia.

Carlos Gomez in his Preface emphasizes the importance of generations of researchers that have made his publication possible. It can not be a work of just one individual!

I fully agree! But - as in my comments on the publication of G. Pettigiani (referred to by Gomez as "su sagrado Manual de la serie") - I find it awfully strange that no one mentioned Dario Bardi! Bardi is just about to publish his book on the P&R II/III - the sequel after the book on the P&R I !!!!

Ignoring - not criticizing! - people is an instrument coming close to a falsification of history well known of the ages gone by.... Sagrado-fication is another instrument of the same eras!

Gomez is paying respect to a valuable student of this Foro! Javier deserves that for 200% or more! It is good that Gomez in some way has discovered this Foro! And let's hope that it will have a meaningful continuing effect on the Gz Catalogo!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

when Carlos Gomez is preparing this great catalogue and using codes for the various types of paper he must have had a complete picture of let's say the uncoated imported papers numbering them from 1 to 37!

Why not immediately give us ALL the descriptions of ALL types of paper!?!? He must have had it ready for ages!!!!

Can I not criticize that lack of publication????

I then started to point out that the first uncoated imported paper nr 1 could NOT have been the Mate Aleman used in 1911 for the Sarmiento stamps!

Prove me wrong, please!!!

saludos, Rein

I hope, the next update of the catalogue, it shows all type of papers!! It will be very interesting!!!!!!!!

Leonardo!

Gomez has fullfilled my wishes!!! At least one of them!

O que los papeles Mates Nacionales no están precedidos por una numeración correlativa; la hemos agregado. O que los papeles enunciados son todos los que conocemos; la enumeración de papeles en esta lista se van agregando a medida que aparecen en el catálogo, pero para los que no puden esperar el mañana, colocaremos al lado de cada grupo la cantidad total hasta la fecha

The Uncoated National papers have got a numbering! 0-8!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

Why not name Mate Importado 02-05, 07-10??? Or 17-18, 23, 25, 29? Why not mention the AP watermarks already???

We had paper 01 from 1896-1911??? No differences in all these years...??

What happens to the types of paper used by all the foreign Printing Houses???? ABNCo, NBCo, JESSP, Casa de Moneda Chile etc...

The 1923 orthogonal watermark from Willgo, Belgium has got its deserved name! Mate Belga! Time to get more information form Belgium...

to be continued ....

[Rein]

We have 7 out of the 17 "encapado importado" or imported coated papers so far... Ten more to go in the period 1974-2011! Not much!

Among them:

SEMI-ENCAPADO CHILENO ( S-E. Ch. )
SEMI-ENCAPADO HOLANDES ( S-E. Ho. )
SEMI-ENCAPADO SUIZO ( S-E. Su. )
SEMI-ENCAPADO FRANCES ( S-E. Fr. )

Do they refer to papers used by Argentinean printing houses??? Or was S-E.Ch. used in Valparaiso??? And S-E.Ho in Haarlem??

Gomez sticks to his semi-encapado!

In his introductory notes:

1) PAPEL ENCAPADO
Se trata de un papel que ha sufrido un proceso de encapamiento para mejorar se aspecto.
Dicha capa está compuesta por diversos materiales (tiza, caolín, caseina, etc), de allí el nombre que recibe
comunmente: Tizado. Lo que brinda un aspecto brilloso, muy blanco y una superficie muy lisa sin
intersticios entre fibras que mejora la calidad de la impresión.
En general es un papel grueso, más de 65 gr./m2.
2) PAPEL SEMI-ENCAPADO
Idem anterior pero el encapamiento es más liviano por lo tanto es un papel más delgado y menos brilloso
con un gramaje de 55 gr./m2. (Comunmente se lo conoce como Satinado)

Here, Gomez mixes 3 notions!
- Thickness of paper or paper weight [not quite the same ] - 65gr/m2 vs 55gr/m2
- Thickness of the coating layer
- Aspects of brilliance, shine, gloss, etc.

Gomez most likely wants to refer to the thickness of the coating layer - "... el cual tiene menor espesor de encapado".

So the thin paper or papel delgado has nothing to do here!

Ever tried to guess the thickness of the coating of the 1939-1944 papers??? You may easily get the impression there is NO coating applied at all had there not been some way of brilliance caused by a coating?!

Ever seen a real coating in pre-war English colonies stamps!? Where the coating may easily jump off!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

Eight types of national paper! 01 has NO watermark! The "sol chico" has various sizes but they are ALL controll marks!!!

Of the coated national papers we can expect 64!!!! This should suffice till 2100!!

What happened to numbers 05-08???? All used in 1969-1970??? We are eagerly watching out for Bardi's book on the P&R II/III here! Four types of Semi-Encapado Nacional used for the definitives....

to be continued ....

[leonardoleidi]

Rein!! It is very important that the papers are appearing! When Gz will be finished, it would be really a THINK TANK in philatelly!. This is very important and I am very happy. Now with new Bardi´s PyR II Book we have another important book of reference.

[Rein]

Rein!! It is very important that the papers are appearing! When Gz will be finished, it would be really a THINK TANK in philatelly!. This is very important and I am very happy. Now with new Bardi´s PyR II Book we have another important book of reference.

Leonardo,

I have no doubt about the importance of the Gz Catalogo! Therefore all remarks that can improve the final work are required as soon as possible!

to be continued ....

[leonardoleidi]

Therefore all remarks that can improve the final work are required as soon as possible!

I agree.

[Rein]

One type of paper that Gomez has overlooked!

The normal granulado version:








quite traditional angles - for the blue diagonal lines: -57 and +57 degrees!

But I also found this:








different angles - for the blue diagonal lines: -50 and +50 degrees that go with the density of 24/22 instead of 30/20 ! Around 1941 better known as Tela!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

The Tela has been found in all series that had the German paper delivered by Schadd&Körtelung from Hamburg:

The 1908 JSM en ovalo set had been printed on thin paper with watermark rayos ondulados for most values, but on paper with watermark rayos rectos [thicker paper] for the 1/2c, 1c ochre, 6c, 20c, 24c and 50c!

All these 6 values exist with Tela!!!






to be continued...