CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
With phosphorescence:
All with the back not reacting "N"; all have some signs of asymmetrical wire [ligero rayado] or not at all, two of them are somewhat thin [delgado] and have a shiny surface! When the wire can be seen it is at the back [al dorso].
(10) SEMI-ENCAPADO CELULOSA. trama invisible, delgado, compacto y aspecto brillante. Fosforescencia débil o apagada
(12) SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. ligero Rayado paralelo al lado mayor al dorso. delgado traslúcido y aspecto brillante. Fosforescencia débil o apagada
(14) SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. ligero Rayado paralelo al lado menor, poco visible al dorso. Goma : Semi-brillante, color ambar.
What is the difference between (10) and (12)??? Apart from the name of the paper mill??? Or the occasional visibility of the paper wire at the back? Or maybe (10) had the wire side printed???
The (14) is quite thicker! Instead of 0.09-0.10mm [delgado] we can find 0.10-0.11mm.
to be continued ...
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
I agree with the well-earned applause! Rein
Saludos a todos
Leonardo Daniel Leidi Mora
Leonardo Daniel Leidi Mora
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
Carlos R. Gomez is somehow getting to know what is written here, as in his Intro to version 15 [02.03.2012] he mentions:
This type has been added !!
to be continued ...
(09) Zárate Rayado Paralelo, Filig.: Casa de Moneda 20c. Llama (S. Oficial) - 1963Con gran alegría y satisfacción hemos leído los comentarios realizados por el Sr. Rein sobre la clasificación de los papeles Encapados Nacionales. Se observa la paciencia y esfuerzo que ha dedicado a comprender, a la distancia, lo que vamos presentando. Por lo que nos sentimos obligados a ofrecerle aclaraciones sobre lo escrito. Sobre estos papeles como Ud. sabe, hay poco escrito, por lo que estamos improvisando e investigando al mismo instante. Referente a los nombres Celulosa y Witcell, los hemos adoptado dado que en general el primero tiene el rayado al frente, y a partir de fines de 1974 el papel producido por Witcell tiene el rayado al dorso, o de acuerdo como Ud. lo ve, fueron engomados de manera distinta. Hasta la fecha no habiamos agregado el papel Mate Zárate Rayado con filigrana Casa de Moneda (Z. R. CM.) dado que aparece en sellos de Servicio Oficial y ésta clasificación (Tomo O) sigue en estudio, del mismo modo la clasificación de perforados (Tomo P). Asimismo hemos agregamos en el listado de papeles, algunos más, aunque todavía no aparecen en las presentaciones.
GOOGLE Translate
With great joy and satisfaction we have read the comments made by Mr. Rein on the classification of National coated paper. Note the patience and effort has been devoted to understand, distance, which we presented. So we feel compelled to provide clarification on
writing. On these papers as you know, there is little writing, so we are improvising and investigating the same time. Concerning the names and Witcell Cellulose, we have adopted as the former has generally scoring forward, and from late 1974 the paper produced by Witcell has scratching the back, or according as you see it, were glued differently. To date, no Mate we had added the paper with watermark Zarate Striped Mint (ZR CM.) as appears on labels of Ordnance and this classification (Volume O) is still under consideration, just as the classification of drilled (Volume P). We have also added in the list of roles, some more, although not yet appearing in presentations.
This type has been added !!
to be continued ...
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
And some missing codes filled up:
It seems to me that this watermark has an elliptical shield already???? So what is different in the "Escudo ovalado" varieties???
to be continued ....
We will not get rid of the semi-encapado What about (07) and (08)???? The Casa de Moneda watermark with an elliptical shield????ENCAPADO NACIONAL (Total 64 papeles)
(01) Semi-Encapado Nacional, rayado paralelo, Filig.: Sol RA 9,0x8,5 mm. FN Combate de San Lorenzo - 1963
(02) Semi-Encapado Nacional, gran. perp. y ray. paral, Filig.: Sol RA 9,0x8,5 mm. Ffo Día del Ejército - 1966
(03) Semi-Encapado Nacional, trama invisible, Filig.: Sol RA 9,0x8,5 mm. Ff Ulrico Schmidl - 1969
(04) Semi-Encapado Celulosa, rayado paralelo al frente, Filig.: Casa de Moneda. Ff Día del Ejército - 1969
(05) Semi-Encapado Celulosa, rayado paralelo al frente, Filig.: Casa de Moneda. FN Cent. Hospital de Niños - 1975
(06) Semi-Encapado Witcell, trama invisible, Filig.: Casa de Moneda. FN Puente Paysandú-Colón - 1975
(07) Encapado Witcell, Filig.: Casa de Moneda. Escudo ovalado, muy visible. FN Luis Braille - 1976
(08) Encapado Witcell, Filig.: Casa de Moneda. Escudo ovalado, poco visible. FN Cent. Fundación de Salta - 1982
(09) Semi-Encapado Celulosa, rayado paralelo al lado mayor/menor al frente, s/Fil. FN
(10) Semi-Encapado Celulosa, trama invisible, s/Filig. pN Y.P.F - 1972
(11) Semi-Encapado Witcell, rayado paralelo al lado mayor/menor al dorso, s/Filig. FN Pesca Deportiva - 1974
(12) Semi-Encapado Witcell, rayado paralelo al lado mayor/menor al dorso, s/Filig. pN Belisario Roldán - 1974
(13) Semi-Encapado Witcell, trama invisible y/o rayado a trasluz, s/Filig. FF Día del Ejército - 1976
(14) Semi-Encapado Witcell, rayado paralelo al lado mayor/menor al dorso, s/Filig. pN Conferencia sobre el agua - 1977
(15) Semi-Encapado Mate Witcell, ray. paral. al lado mayor/menor al dorso, s/Filig. FN Correo del Uruguay - 1977
It seems to me that this watermark has an elliptical shield already???? So what is different in the "Escudo ovalado" varieties???
to be continued ....
Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
Rein,
The original design of our coat of arms os oval. In presentm Spanish "escudo" means coat of arms and also shield, I rhink I rold you this before; Celulosa had the CdM dandy roll in its plant in Granadero Baigorria, Santa Fe `province, and the whole watermark was round. But because od a failure, they had to have rhe CdM paper in their Zárate plant, in Buenos Aires province.
As explained personally to me by the Zárate plant manager, they used de Granadera Baigorria dandy roll in Záeate papermaking machine, i.e. they took off the Sun R.A. dandy roll and replaced it by the CdM. As the speed ratio of machine and dandy roll were different, the round watermark became oval. I think that what Gómez is trying to say. Saludos,
José
The original design of our coat of arms os oval. In presentm Spanish "escudo" means coat of arms and also shield, I rhink I rold you this before; Celulosa had the CdM dandy roll in its plant in Granadero Baigorria, Santa Fe `province, and the whole watermark was round. But because od a failure, they had to have rhe CdM paper in their Zárate plant, in Buenos Aires province.
As explained personally to me by the Zárate plant manager, they used de Granadera Baigorria dandy roll in Záeate papermaking machine, i.e. they took off the Sun R.A. dandy roll and replaced it by the CdM. As the speed ratio of machine and dandy roll were different, the round watermark became oval. I think that what Gómez is trying to say. Saludos,
José
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
José,Otin escribió:Rein,
The original design of our coat of arms os oval. In presentm Spanish "escudo" means coat of arms and also shield, I rhink I rold you this before; Celulosa had the CdM dandy roll in its plant in Granadero Baigorria, Santa Fe `province, and the whole watermark was round. But because od a failure, they had to have rhe CdM paper in their Zárate plant, in Buenos Aires province.
As explained personally to me by the Zárate plant manager, they used de Granadera Baigorria dandy roll in Záeate papermaking machine, i.e. they took off the Sun R.A. dandy roll and replaced it by the CdM. As the speed ratio of machine and dandy roll were different, the round watermark became oval. I think that what Gómez is trying to say. Saludos,
José
OK, but Gz has in his list:
Celulosa with (4), (5) no oval mentioned
Witcel with (6) no oval mentioned and (7) and (8) oval mentioned...
So this change of speed did not start immediately at Witcel???
to be continued ...
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
The 1979.- Correo Ordinario. Centro Cívico Bariloche is supposed to have THREE different types of paper!
SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. S-E. W. (24) Sin filigrana. Goma : Semi-brillante, rugosa y color ambar oscuro. Fluorescente. FN.
SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. S-E. W. (25) Trama invisible, mediano, compacto y aspecto brillante. Goma : Semi-brillante, color ambar. Fluorescente. Ff.
SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. S-E. W. (13a) Trama invisible, delgado, compacto y aspecto brillante. Goma : Semi-brillante, color ambar. Fluorescente. FFo.
There is hardly any difference between paper (25) and paper (13a) but for a hue of optical brightening... Or is it the thickness of the paper?
And what has 13a to do with 13???
(13) Semi-Encapado Witcell, trama invisible y/o rayado a trasluz, delgado, compacto y aspecto brillante. s/Filig. FF.
Is there anybody who can tell these SEW's apart???? And on what grounds????
to be continued ...
SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. S-E. W. (24) Sin filigrana. Goma : Semi-brillante, rugosa y color ambar oscuro. Fluorescente. FN.
SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. S-E. W. (25) Trama invisible, mediano, compacto y aspecto brillante. Goma : Semi-brillante, color ambar. Fluorescente. Ff.
SEMI-ENCAPADO WITCELL. S-E. W. (13a) Trama invisible, delgado, compacto y aspecto brillante. Goma : Semi-brillante, color ambar. Fluorescente. FFo.
There is hardly any difference between paper (25) and paper (13a) but for a hue of optical brightening... Or is it the thickness of the paper?
And what has 13a to do with 13???
(13) Semi-Encapado Witcell, trama invisible y/o rayado a trasluz, delgado, compacto y aspecto brillante. s/Filig. FF.
Is there anybody who can tell these SEW's apart???? And on what grounds????
to be continued ...
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
The type of recess-printing press is that of a Koebau_Giori. Hence NO Giorgi .....
See also my postings:
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=1536&p=8327&hilit=giori#p8327
viewtopic.php?f=137&t=7702&p=64528&hilit=giori#p64528
to be continued ...
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
The symmetrical paper wire for the Zárate papers is described by C.R. Gomez as follows:
ZG '53
Granulado abierto y visible, perpendicular a la
filigrana. Mediano a delgado, algo traslúcido y poroso
ZG'54
Granulado cerrado y poco visible, perpendicular a la
filigrana. Mediano, algo traslúcido y poroso.
ZG '57
Granulado perpendicular a la filigrana.
Mediano, opaco y poroso.
But what does the granulado abierto or cerrado mean??? The mesh being open or closed???
When the wire side is at the back the mesh is open? And when the felt side is at the back the mesh is closed????
With ZG '57 we do not even know whether the mesh is closed or open!!!
to be continued ....
ZG '53
Granulado abierto y visible, perpendicular a la
filigrana. Mediano a delgado, algo traslúcido y poroso
ZG'54
Granulado cerrado y poco visible, perpendicular a la
filigrana. Mediano, algo traslúcido y poroso.
ZG '57
Granulado perpendicular a la filigrana.
Mediano, opaco y poroso.
But what does the granulado abierto or cerrado mean??? The mesh being open or closed???
When the wire side is at the back the mesh is open? And when the felt side is at the back the mesh is closed????
With ZG '57 we do not even know whether the mesh is closed or open!!!
to be continued ....
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
ZG'53 for both the 10c and 20c but also the 25c. It is obvious that Gomez does not know the 25c himself! He simply assumes that the "traspuesta" exists in both normal and upsidedown version!!
Comparing the surface structure of the 25c with that of the 10c and 20c it is clear that the quality of the paper is different! The 25c has a much more closed surface than the 10c and the 20c. And none of the three have anything in common with the 1956 Poliomyelitis stamp that is supposed to be the exemplary ZG '53! Just the fact hat the paper wire is symmetrical! Nothing more!
Do we know of any other stamp that has a similar type of paper around 1953-1954???
to be continued ...
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
ZG '53 occurs only in a few instance - at least as far as we can judge form the Gz catalogue so far! When more of the P&R II/III definitives get added we may expect more!
So far we have the Evita's and two commemoratives:
Both stamps are in photogravure hence the type of paper may differ from that used for the Evita's !
to be continued ....
So far we have the Evita's and two commemoratives:
Both stamps are in photogravure hence the type of paper may differ from that used for the Evita's !
to be continued ....
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
The San José de Flores have ither the indents [rhombos] at the front OR at the back:
At the front
at the back
In both cases we clearly see the AЯ!
This is NOT possible UNLESS we have two different dandy-rolls used !
to be continued ....
At the front
at the back
In both cases we clearly see the AЯ!
This is NOT possible UNLESS we have two different dandy-rolls used !
to be continued ....
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
However at the front we see the indents as well i all cases however more strongly depending on how strong the indents show at the back!
Seen from the front
Seen from the back
to be continued ...
Seen from the front
Seen from the back
to be continued ...
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Re: CEFILOZA - Catálogo Gz
In the list of imported papers we still miss the 23 and 25! Let's hope they refer to the AP watermarks!
AFRA Revista May 1956 number 109:
The author shows that there are TWO different watermarks - an oval type and an elliptical type! The first in 1927 and 1930, the second in 1930 on thin paper!
It is very typical to find the distinction here between elliptical and oval!! Instead of oval also the term "pear shaped" was used!
to be continued ....
AFRA Revista May 1956 number 109:
The author shows that there are TWO different watermarks - an oval type and an elliptical type! The first in 1927 and 1930, the second in 1930 on thin paper!
It is very typical to find the distinction here between elliptical and oval!! Instead of oval also the term "pear shaped" was used!
to be continued ....
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The new 06.06.2012 edition is progressing! Worth reading and commenting it carefully!
to be continued ...
Of course Gomez is exaggerating! I may be as wrong as anyone at times! But just the same! A positive criticism is an advantage for everybody!En ésta décimo octava presentación, llegamos a 440 páginas de las 1225 propuestas, nos ocupamos
exclusivamente en la continuación del Tomo IV y gracias a la certera observación del Sr. Rein hemos
corregido el nombre de la impresora de los sellos grabados. Asi también y como siempre el Sr. Rein tiene
razón, el 25c. Eva Perón sobre papel nacional, granulado perpendicular, lo conocimos éste mes y por
supuesto es distinto al 10 y 20c. Realmente estamos muy agradecidos por contar con un asesor externo que
nos marca el camino que deseamos transitar, para obtener a la brevedad un catálogo de Argentina de alto
nivel. Nuevamente muchas gracias por todos sus comentarios que enriquecen la Filatelia Argentina.
to be continued ...