Mate Importado

[Andresteban]

Justo justo tengo una estampilla que escaneé de los tres tipos ( tizado, mate nac y mate imp ) y ahora viendo esto, se me hizo un bolonqui terrible otra vez!
Me pueden decir CUAL ES el mate nac y cual el imp, PLEASE!!!

2papeles en 300.jpg

uno es tizado y el otro mate ( yo creí que nacional )

2papelesimp.jpg

y este mate creí que importado.
Help!!

[Rein]

Andresestaban!

according to J. Holler and others we have 2 printing methods for the 8p:

offset-litho and typography. Offset-litho has always uncoated paper - either MI or MN (mate importado o mate nacional). Typography here has only coated paper (tizado).

In details the differences between offset-litho and typography in the face.

in offset-litho:



in typography:




Or have a good look at the corners to see the differences between offset-litho and typography.

in offset-litho:



in typography:




That would make 3 types only which is NOT true - although the catalogues say so - but the specialists know better!

In offset-litho 3 types of uncoated paper:

- direction of paper vertical + line of AЯ horizontal - a so-called orthogonal watermark





-
- direction of paper horizontal + line of AЯ vertical - a so-called orthogonal watermark







- direction of paper horizontal + line of AЯ horizontal - a so-called parallel watermark







In typography 1 type of coated paper with the subtype of tizado varioloso (pockmarked):

- direction of paper vertical + line of AЯ horizontal - a so-called orthogonal watermark






Pockmarked (tizado varioloso):




The parallel watermark is most likely to be on imported paper!

[patagonian]

Antes que revolees todo, te paso mis San Martines "8 pesos" para que te fijes cómo es el tema.
Seguro que habrá colegas que hallan detectado muchas más variedades, pero te paso los básicos para que puedas salir del paso ahora.

San Martin 8p.jpg

Lo primero que tenés que darte cuenta es cuál es tipografiado y cuál es offset. El tipografiado tiene en las esquinas del marco unos escapes de tinta hacia afuera, y en el papel se nota la presión del clisé, sobre todo desde atrás el contorno del marco (se llama foulage).
En éstos es más fácil todavía, porque es el único fluorescente, todos los demás son neutros.
Una vez que tenés este tipografiado, ya sabés que ese papel es el MATE IMPORTADO. Es tan blanco que podrías pensar que es tizado, pero NO, es MATE.
Este es el Pt 706. La goma es blanca, mate, con una especie de rayadito horizontal, como si tuviera estrías o quebraduras. Existe una variedad bastante escasa en papel acartonado bien grueso, que es neutro.

Pasemos a los offset. La impresión parece más plana, mejor detallada, las esquinas son perfectas y no hay el menor signo de presión en el papel.

El Pt 705 va en papel MATE NACIONAL y podés ver lo amarillento que parece al lado del otro. IMPORTANTE: La filigrana es HORIZONTAL. La goma es brillante, ambarina, lisa, y es bastante propensa al óxido. El sello se curva según un eje vertical.

El Pt 705a está impreso sobre papel MATE IMPORTADO, blanco como el tipografiado, y la filigrana, más visible, es VERTICAL. La goma es blanca, con cierta aspereza por presentar un rayadito muy fino, como craquelé, en sentido diagonal. El sello se curva según su eje horizontal.


Respecto a la serie Eva Perón del 1952, con el color del papel y de la goma tenés ya una gran diferencia; por otra parte la filigrana es mucho más visible en el IMPORTADO, y siempre tenés los valores "grandes" de la serie y el 45c azul, que sólo existen en importado, para referencia.

Evita_25c_papel_import&nacional.jpg

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[Andresteban]

Peerfecto!!!
entonces, resumiendo: si volvemos a mis estampillitas era nomás que la primera es tizada, la segunda mate nacional y la parejita mate importado, es así?
Creo que es util para diferenciarlos el hecho de que el mate nacional es mas "ambarino" y el importado es blanco, sobre todo la goma ( en sellos nuevos, obvio)
Obviamente que son las que tengo en la mano y por lo tanto me sirven para no tener dudas, aunque por los scans de Nestor ( lo de Rein es muy avanzado para mi ) creo que no hay equivocos al respecto, pero por favor si me pueden contestar "categóricamente" si es así.

[Rein]

Nestor,

I am afraid you have the 2 offset-litho papers mixed up! The left one with the line of AЯ horizontal [eje de enrollamiento vertical] is "nacional"; the right one with the line of AЯ vertical [eje de enrollamiento horizontal] is "imported".

[zeus25971]

Si ....es como decis.....lo unico que hay discrepancias es con el tipografiado....que Nestor dice que es mate Importado y el Mello dice que es tizado ( le creo mas a nestor )......pero en cuanto a tu duda con los offset......"estabamos" en lo cierto

Saludos
Luis

[Rein]

Una vez que tenés este tipografiado, ya sabés que ese papel es el MATE IMPORTADO. Es tan blanco que podrías pensar que es tizado, pero NO, es MATE.

No, the typography stamps are all on "national" paper. As far as I know there is no uncoated [mate] version, only a coated version! And in that coated version around 1967 we find the TV with all these spickly little holes in the coating. Never as bad - or sick - as in the 20p JSM, however!

[Rein]

The offset-litho printed values of the Evita series are supposed to have been printed on imported paper.

A few values - the 1c, 10c, 20c, 25c and 50c are also on "national paper". As the German Michel World catalogue is mentioning the existance of some values with yellow gum, it is likely that Michel refers to the "national paper" here.

The Evita stamp with clearly visible watermark I show here before must have been "imported"or "national"???



The red lines point to the torsion effect of the asymmetric paper wire - more or less horizontal lines. The blue lines also point to the a-symmetry and the direction of paper - here vertical in relation to the stamp shape!

Also the national paper is supposed to be introduced only in 1953; so the first printing of the Evita issue must have been on imported paper!

The 20c imported:



The 10c National:

[Rein]

The whole discussion about "mate nacional"' versus 'mate importado' is getting burlesque.

Before the Zarate paper works started delivering stamp paper again [1953?] most paper was uncoated [thus matt] and imported; no need to coin the terms 'mate importado' or 'mate nacional'. This changed with the Evita definitives in 1952. Several values were printed on paper from Zarate as well.

Maybe some "mate inportado" paper was left over and used during the 1950-ies, but the 8p we were discussing here [and few other definitives] originate from the 1960-ies! So how do we know that the paper was imported??? And what are the specifications??? Who described these types of paper in the philatelic press for the first time and how did he /she describe it???

But we can be sure that after that catalogue makers not understanding a thing about it made a delightful mess we can still endure.............

[patagonian]

Gracias Rein, voy a ver si no se me cruzaron los papelitos de los offset, que puede suceder.
Mejor dejen sin efecto mi post en cuanto a los San Martín 8p ya que la identificación no responde a una investigación científica del papel, sino a material de referencia clasificado y enviado por Alejandro Argüello, que tiene mi confianza en el tema.
Pero todos pueden estar errados, así que si alguno de los participantes lo vé a Merlo que la tiene muy clara, u otro referente de ese nivel que nos dé una mano, bienvenido sea.
Porque el problema no es tanto la identificación, sino el nombre dado a determinados papeles por los catálogos, en lo que hay errores que se propagan irremediablemente.

[patagonian]

A veces doy por descontado que todos tenemos la misma referencia que es el último MT; por las dudas reproduzco sobre qué se basa la identificación de papeles del 95% de los aficionados argentinos, para bien o para mal.

Def_papeles_MT98.jpg

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[ntrm]

Aportando un poquito mas a la confusión, les dejo mis fichas...

File0281 (Large).jpg

File0282 (Large).jpg

File0280 (Large).jpg

Martin

[Rein]

Nestor,

making mistakes is no problem. I am learning still - from everybody around here - and from acquiring new material that hadn't been sorted out.

I really need the old publications to understand how it got so far that we ended up with a classification as we have now. Some observations made once were completely correct taking into consideration the techniques available then and now.

As I have told before, I have quite a few years of experience with recognizing stamp printing and manufacturering methods - getting close to 40 years - and so far I had the opportunity to break down the "DaVinci Code" top modern day stamps for several countries like Israel, Poland, Indonesia, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Time to do the same with Argentina and then I am very grateful for the support I get from you and other philatelists like Tony Rubiera and Luis Recagno.

[Rein]

Martin,

your scans are fine as long as you need the orientation of the AЯ relative to the stamp design and do not care about the watermark it self.

My 2 types - orthogonal [direction of paper and the line of AЯ are perpendicular] or parallel [direction of paper and th e line of AЯ are parallel] are basic notions not only for Argentina. The watermark design has a completely different orientation on the dandy-roll [the cylinder which makes the "impression" in the paper just before the product has finished].

In your scans I need to find the direction of paper and I can not as they are not detailed enough...

Measuring the size of the sun and the letters is great but need good measuring equipment after having made visible the watermark in the first place.

In order to see whether the watermark is orthogonal or parallel is suffices to establish the direction of paper first [eje de enrollamiento]. I am sure that D.A. Bardi or J.Merlo have described this in Spanish much better than I can do in English for Spanish speaking persons. Make sure you have the stamps with the axis in a vertical position [as in my last scans] and then look at the alignement of the letters....

[Rein]

The 1956 1st Anniversary of the September Revolution of 1955 has 2 types of paper that can not be found in the Tello Meggia catalogue as the line of AЯ is the same in both cases - horizontal relative to the stamp design.

In reality we are dealing with a parallel watermark in combination with a horizontal direction of paper (eje de enrollamiento) or an orthogonal watermark in combination with a vertical direction of paper (eje de enrollamiento).

Parallel:





Orthogonal:





Once more said, it is utmost important to establish the direction of paper!!