The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

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The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 28 Sep 2010 09:28

I have just received the magnificent book on the P&R I series.

It is a welcome addition to everybody's library when collecting this series!

It has got ONE major disadvantage! The author hasn't read the postings made in this Foro the last few years neither by Tony Rubiera nor by my [not so] humble person. This is a great pity! I will return to the aspects where Pettigiani could have gained a lot or could have avoided making mistakes.

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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor juma » 28 Sep 2010 09:31

Hoy me llega a mi el libro. Se lo compré a Gottig. Slds.
En http://FilateliaArgentina.blogspot.com podrás ver innumerables imagenes de sellos que doy para el intercambio. Lista de Faltas y podràs anotarte para los intercambios.
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor ntrm » 28 Sep 2010 09:37

Rein, que raro lo que decis, ya que en los agradecimientos me pareció leerlo a Tony...

Martin
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 28 Sep 2010 09:41

ntrm escribiste:Rein, que raro lo que decis, ya que en los agradecimientos me pareció leerlo a Tony...

Martin


Martin,

as to illustrations Tony provided, yes, but otherwise....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 28 Sep 2010 11:35

The Manual gives a broad picture of all aspects of the P&R I series.

pages:

009-022 History
023-064 Elements of classification
065-105 Specialized Catalogue
106-110 General Table of the Series
111-128 Varieties
129-138 Sheets and margins
139-142 Essays
143-150 Booklets
151-156 Postal stationery
157-162 Falsifications
163-170 Postal rates
171-175 Ministerials and Servicio Oficial
176 Bibliography

the main body still dealing with the types of paper and watermarks!
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 28 Sep 2010 11:48

What is striking is that the Bibliography does NOT mention the 2008 Clasificacion and its Tabla-General NOR does it mention the "Catalogo Especializado de Sellos Postales Próceres y Riquezas I" written by Darió Bardi !!!!

You can have different opinions of these publications and these may be rather critical, but simply ignoring these recent publications is an offense.... An offense also to the collectors who have bought the Bardi book and might be quite happy with it albeit for reasons of simplicity and transparency.

Do the publications - Pettigiani's and Bardi's - conflict or contradict each other???

My critical notes may find that out. The most obvious difference and having the most impact will be the nomenclature of which all participants in this Foro have at one point or the other expressed their opinion that by having yet another code is getting tiresome... Having Bardi, Rubiera and now Pettigiani!

Does it mean that we still do not know enough??? Or is it just clashing egoes...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 28 Sep 2010 12:09

023-064 Elements of classification

According to Pettigiani The surface of the printed side can be distinguished as

A coated [tizado]
B calandered [satinado]
C matt [mate]

Matt is taken here as not coated and not shiny. I have already discussed the problem that we can have - and we do have this in Argentina philately - coated papers that are matt!

This questionable aspect will come back when dealing with the 10c Rivadavia on "mate lustroso". The aspect of the printers having used a varnish is complicating this matter even more! And how sure are we that no P&R I stamp has been varnished????

to be continued ....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 28 Sep 2010 12:15

I once said that the study of stamp papers by philatelists hasn't reached such level of depth anywhere in the world but for Argentina! José Merlo took that as a big complement and he quite rightly did so!

Not even the British philatelists go that far in studying their stamps and their paper aspects compared to what happens in Argentina!

This means that "Noblesse oblige" and any critical remark in that field should be taken seriously and used as the starting point for even further studies...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 28 Sep 2010 12:39

023-064 Elements of classification

Wire mesh [Trama]

Apart from differentiating bwetween "grené"and "granulado" the imprint of the rhombos - "holes" in between the threads - can be more or less visible at the wire side of the papel. Pettigiani takes it for granted that the wire side gets the gum and the felt side gets the print. This not true and certainly not when dealing with the national papers of the 1953-1959 period.

The paper mesh as we see it comes from a weave that has vertical lines/threads and horizontal threads of various densities; the usual density is 28-30 vertical threads(warp) per horizontal centimeter AND some 20 horizontal threads (weft) per vertical centimeter! The gauges noted as follows - 28/20, 30/20, 24/20, etc...

Not only density is important, the weave binding is a cardinal aspect. It had been a so-called linen-binding for all mechanically manufactured papers till 1938; after 1938 we could meet a so-calle twill binding.

Pettigiani seems to repeat what Merlo wrote in 1966 assigning the "papel rayados" to the linen-binding having a density of say 20/30 instead of 30/20! When having a better look at the picture of the "Tela metalica de papeles rayados" you will see that it is a twill!

The various "trrama' are assigned letters:

V grené
W granulado vertical
X tela
Y rayado vertical
Z rayado horizontal

We have here both the types of weave binding and orientation of the line of AЯ combined....

to be continued ....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Juampiweb » 28 Sep 2010 14:12

Hola Rein te felicito por el análisis que hacés sobre el tema porque siempre es bueno desde un punto de vista imparcial poder analizar socumentos y libros que enriquecen a toda la comunidad; en especial por el gran conocimiento que tenés sobre el tema y que desinteresadamente compartís con todos nosotros.

Hasta ahora seguimos sabiendo que no hay ninguna obra completa que pueda encarar el tema en su totalidad primero por ser muy extenso y otro por los diversos puntos de vistas.

Los filatelistas que tratamos de hacer una colección mas o menos seria sabremos que es necesario consultar de todas las fuentes posibles para lograr una colección pulida en casi todos los detalles.

Nuevamente agradezco tu gran aporte.

Saludos.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Juan Pablo
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 29 Sep 2010 04:42

Pettigiani having 5 types of "trama" V, W, X, Y and Z mixing categories of binding with a particular shape of the watermark is a methodological mistake.

In the period concerned 1935-1960 only two categories of binding - two major weaving techniques existed that would be found reflected in the paper wire (mesh) that forms the background of our watermarks!

The warp is the vertcal thread in the loom, the weft is the filling yarn that will be fed through the warp threads from left to right, right to left, etc.

Imagen

From the very beginning of the machine-made paper "plain weave" or linen-binding had been used. This continued into the 1970-ies, but most of the paper manufacturers had been changing to the more flexible twill weave and certainly with the availability of plastic fibres twill weave became dominant and later on even more complex weaving patterns were introduced.


The twill weave we will find only from 1938 onwards. In Argentinean postage stamps this is to be found in what is called "papel rayado" since 1944 [or maybe bit earlier?]. The twill weave is a-symmetrical hence my use of the term "a-symmetrical paper wire".

Plain weave is symmetrical and as the vertical threads are usually more dense [30/cm horizontally] than the horizontal threads [20/cm vertically] we see a stretched rhomboid in the vertical direction. This the so-called "granulado"!!!

When the vertical threads are not so densely planted, let's say 24/cm horizontally or a bit less, we get to see what was called here "Tela"

"Plain weave is the simplest type of weave. A single weft is progressively passed over one warp and under the next warp, working across the width of the loom. The weft is then passed back through warps in the opposite direction alternating from the previous over-and-under pattern. Variations are possible by using double or tripled warp or weft threads in a variety of combinations."

"Warp-faced weave fabric has greater number of warp threads per centimeter, while weft-faced weave fabric has a greater number of weft threads per centimeter. When both the warp and weft threads are equal in number per
centimeter, it is termed balanced weave. All textiles fall into one of these categories."

The quoted texts are from the Brigham Young University website with the screen-copies I made added to the text. Similar texts and sites can be found by Googling "twill weave".....

Imagen

"granulado":

Imagen

"Twill weave is similar to plain weave in that the weft passes over and under warp threads. However, warp yarns are skipped at predetermined intervals to create a diagonal rib in the weave."

Imagen

"rayado":

Imagen


The twill being asymmetrical is more prone to torsion than the plain weave and this results in the visual effect of slghtly ascending or descending lines - red in the scheme - that helps givng the impression of "rayado".

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 29 Sep 2010 04:53

Pettigiani uses a scheme of the twill for the "papeles rayados" which is correct, but he doesn't explain it any further.

What should have been done is to insert the notion of "eje de enrollamiento" [direction of paper] - which is discussed a bit later - and leave the description and the orientation of the watermark where it belongs.

I will keep on telling it - you can not study the types of paper and watermarks - not just of Argentina - without dealing with the "direction of paper " first!

Trama X [Tela] is just a form of plain weave with - as mentioned above - a density that differs a lot from the usual 30/20! Another clearly different one is the 30/16 plain weave used in 1943 for the USA coated paper. Pettigiani can not decide which type of trama to go with it!

to be continued ....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 29 Sep 2010 04:55

An additional info that should be more or less to the same extent as what I had before!

http://www.sweco.com/es/wire_glossary.html

Imagen

Tipos de telas metálicas

"El ligamento tafetán es el ligamento usado con mayor frecuencia. Cada alambre de la trama pasa alternativamente por encima y por debajo del alambre de la urdimbre y viceversa Los diámetros de la urdimbre y la trama son normalmente iguales. Se dispoen de mallas de ligamento tafetán con aberturas de 10,7 mm (2 mallas) a 0,05 mm (325 mallas).

El ligamento sarga es más fuerte que el ligamento tafetán. Cada alambre de la trama se cruza alternativamente por encima de dos alambres y después por debajo de otros dos alambres de la urdimbre. El ligamento sarga se usa normalmente para instalar un alambre de diámetro más grueso que el normal en relación con una malla dada."

The twill weave shown here is 2/2 instead of 2/1 or 1/2 = 2 up and 2 down instead of 2 up and 1 down etc....

The Argentine "rayado" is 2/1 !!!
The Argentine "granulado" is 1/1 !!!

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 29 Sep 2010 05:07

Discussing the watermark itself Pettigiani starts off with the picture of the dandy-roll or bailarin:

Imagen

The subsequently described watermarks needed to be related to the dandy-roll both in the sense of orientation:

- parallel watermarks with the line of RA runs across the axis of the dandy-roll or
- orthogonal watermarks with the line of RA runs parallel to the axis of the dandy-roll;

and in the visible orientation or readability of the letters on the dandy-roll:

- AЯ as in the picture or
- RA

Also Pettigiani should have explained a bit more about the wire side and the felt side of the paper. He just assumes that the wire side gets the gumming by default and the felt side the print. This is not the case in quite a lot of Argentine stamps - not of the P&R I period nor before nor after!

to be continued ....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 29 Sep 2010 05:20

Watermarks are to be divided by Pettigiani in two main groups:

- wavy rays or rayos ondulados
- strraight rays or rayos rectos

This is a very old distinction - it even goes back to the 1908-1911 period - and in fact mainly refers to the rays that are not horizontal - in line with the letters.

mainly describing the diameters of the sun we get the following types:

- sol rayos ondulados - wavy rays

I sol redondo de 10mm de diametro - round sun, diameter 10mm
II sol redondo de 11mm de diametro - round sun, diameter 11mm
III sol muy chico de unos 8,5mm de diametro - smaller sun, diameter 8.5mm
IV sol ovalado de 11x10,5mm de diametro vertical y horizontal respectivamente - oval sun, 11mm high, 10,5mm wide
V sol un poco achatado chico, de unos 8,5 a 9mm de diametro - small sun somewhat flattened, diameter 8,5 a 9mm
VI filigrana irregular poco visble - irregular watermark hardly visible

in the other types the letters themselves can be more precisely described, this can not be done in "VI"!


- sol rayos rectos - straight rays

VII filigrana poco visbile debido al grosor del papel - watermark hardly visible due to the thickness of the paper
VIII filigrana visible debido a que el papel que es traslucido - watermark visbile due to the translucency of the paper

to be continued ...
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