P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

This sub-forum is dedicated to one of the most interesting and complex definitive series in 20th Century philately: the Argentina 1935-51 Definitives

Moderador: Rein

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor rubiera » 17 Abr 2011 17:07

20cLC additional plate varieties

I have not found second examples of these yet.

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
http://www.somestamps.com/
blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
Avatar de Usuario
rubiera
Moderador
Moderador
 
Mensajes: 1831
Registrado: 10 Abr 2008 12:49

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor rubiera » 17 Abr 2011 17:09

20cLC with ink splatters

Some of these splatters are plate varieties, others are from over-inking. I am not sure which ones these are.

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

20cLC with significant background shift

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
http://www.somestamps.com/
blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
Avatar de Usuario
rubiera
Moderador
Moderador
 
Mensajes: 1831
Registrado: 10 Abr 2008 12:49

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor rubiera » 17 Abr 2011 17:10

20cLC with stray vertical ink line

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

20cLC1E3b printed on paper with small threads

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
http://www.somestamps.com/
blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
Avatar de Usuario
rubiera
Moderador
Moderador
 
Mensajes: 1831
Registrado: 10 Abr 2008 12:49

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor Rein » 18 Abr 2011 04:06

rubiera escribiste:The 20cLC1E3b and the 20cLC1L1 papers

Here is the 1E3b. It has a square grid.

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

.... [snipped] ....

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen



Tony,

watch out for the brown fibers!!!

According to José Merlo, the brown fibers are just an chemical change due to the water in the Northern Hemisphere! The fibers probably curl differently due to the Coriolis-effect!

to be continued ....
Avatar de Usuario
Rein
Usuario Colaborador
Usuario Colaborador
 
Mensajes: 6179
Registrado: 13 Mar 2009 15:59
Ubicación: Leiden, Netherlands

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor rubiera » 18 Abr 2011 07:16

Rein,

The fibers are definitely IN the paper, there is no way they came from an envelope or some other extraneous source. Was this part of some experimental program? Where could they come from. I am sorry if I missed one of your posts on this.

tony
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
http://www.somestamps.com/
blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
Avatar de Usuario
rubiera
Moderador
Moderador
 
Mensajes: 1831
Registrado: 10 Abr 2008 12:49

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor Rein » 18 Abr 2011 09:58

rubiera escribiste:Rein,

The fibers are definitely IN the paper, there is no way they came from an envelope or some other extraneous source. Was this part of some experimental program? Where could they come from. I am sorry if I missed one of your posts on this.

tony



Tony,

you missed quite some postings :)

viewtopic.php?f=137&t=5576
viewtopic.php?f=137&t=5602

All come from Wiggins Teape - the English paper mills where all the 1E1, 1E3a, 1E3c come from!!! - I have found stamps both PyR I and commemoratives with brown fibers from the 1936-1938 period [1E1] and the 1942-1945 period [1E3c aka Tela]....

Of course you are right that the fibers are inside the paper but they do not necessarily must have been in the paper pulp but could get into the paper at the moment the reel leaves the wire and passes cylinders [both sides of the reel] covered with felt before it gets dried and pressed fartheron ... These felt covered cylinders could have been contaminated by brown fibers from earlier runs to manufacture card board or enveloppes... The paper is wet enough to receive these fibers on either side or just one!

The stamps I have may have just a few fibers [including a few red ones!] - usually not exceeding some 5 in total per stamp - but also a considerable concentration of mainly brown fibers! Take a look a t the scans I made!

The post-war Wiggins Teape paper - the Rayado Vertical being one of them - has the same phenomenon but this time not so outstanding and the colour is GREEN!!

I do not believe the northern hemisphere water theory. As nobody had apparently seen the green fibers before - nor the blue ones in the Dutch papers of 1992 I displayed - the most plausible explanation is that nobody had looked well enough before... ;)

First the brown fibers were an European trick, now the US has joined us.... Next is Uruguay, where a briliant student of PyR I papers has discovered new properties of the 5c Moreno!!! Guillermo Sosa aka CastañoOchre


to be continued ....
Avatar de Usuario
Rein
Usuario Colaborador
Usuario Colaborador
 
Mensajes: 6179
Registrado: 13 Mar 2009 15:59
Ubicación: Leiden, Netherlands

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor Rein » 19 Abr 2011 09:00

The 20c Toro on Wiggins Teape paper with a parallel watermark, symmetrical mesh and density 24/22 PLUS brown fibers:

Imagen
Imagen
Imagen
Imagen


N.B. also red fibers!


to be continued .....
Avatar de Usuario
Rein
Usuario Colaborador
Usuario Colaborador
 
Mensajes: 6179
Registrado: 13 Mar 2009 15:59
Ubicación: Leiden, Netherlands

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor Rein » 20 Dic 2011 16:24

So far all the brown fibers are in papers supplied by Wiggins Teape from England!

Quite a surprise it is to find brown fibers in other papers as well!

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

The fibers are NOT evenly spread!

Imagen

Paper without watermark! Symmetrical paper wire, direction of paper horizontal!

to be continued ...//www
Avatar de Usuario
Rein
Usuario Colaborador
Usuario Colaborador
 
Mensajes: 6179
Registrado: 13 Mar 2009 15:59
Ubicación: Leiden, Netherlands

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor stamps9407 » 14 Feb 2012 08:12

Hello Rein, I have some doubts with this one.

pyri020tg_v01b_r2c1_mod.jpg
20tg


May this be MI5? the other option I see is RR2 but the sun are too close (nevertheless the rays looks like quite straight to me)

Thanks

Sergio
stamps9407
Usuario Verificado
Usuario Verificado
 
Mensajes: 472
Registrado: 01 Mar 2009 18:58
Ubicación: Buenos Aires
Colecciono: Argentinas
Ordinarias en gral.
Inglaterra
España
Italia
Canje de Sellos: Si

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor Rein » 14 Feb 2012 10:44

stamps9407 escribiste:Hello Rein, I have some doubts with this one.

Imagen

May this be MI5? the other option I see is RR2 but the sun are too close (nevertheless the rays looks like quite straight to me)

Thanks

Sergio


Sergio,

the straight rays point to RR 2 and so does the rough structure as far as I can see from the scan! Both sides of the stamp should have a fluffy surface [RR2 ] whereas the front of MI 6 has a quite flat, even surface! But there is no MI 6 [Rayado Horizontal] for the 20c Toro!!

Imagen

What is characteristic for RR is the vertical distance between 2 alternate rows of the suns is 3.5cm!!! Instead of 3.0cm!!! The row inbetween [with a shift horizontally] may not be exactly in the middle which makes the diagonal rays a bit shorter (or longer!)!

RR 2 (m) or Rayos Rectos Nitidos with the direction of paper parallel to the short (m=menor) side of the stamp is the only candidate really :)

saludos, Rein
Avatar de Usuario
Rein
Usuario Colaborador
Usuario Colaborador
 
Mensajes: 6179
Registrado: 13 Mar 2009 15:59
Ubicación: Leiden, Netherlands

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor stamps9407 » 14 Feb 2012 21:46

Hello Rein,

...whereas the front of MI 6 has a quite flat,...


I said MI5 but you are right MI6 is asymmetrical and orthogonal watermark.

What is characteristic for RR is the vertical distance between 2 alternate rows of the suns is 3.5cm!!!


This stamps' Height is 37mm, you can see the suns, so distance between suns looks like smaller than 3.5cm

According to Bardi's book for RR2 this stamps is m/M, but Bardi also says that ray lenght is 12.5mm for RR2 in this stamps ray are 9mm long.

Here you can find a 1200dpi scan of the back.
Thanks
Sergio
stamps9407
Usuario Verificado
Usuario Verificado
 
Mensajes: 472
Registrado: 01 Mar 2009 18:58
Ubicación: Buenos Aires
Colecciono: Argentinas
Ordinarias en gral.
Inglaterra
España
Italia
Canje de Sellos: Si

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor Rein » 15 Feb 2012 12:40

stamps9407 escribiste:Hello Rein,

...whereas the front of MI 6 has a quite flat,...


I said MI5 but you are right MI6 is asymmetrical and orthogonal watermark.

What is characteristic for RR is the vertical distance between 2 alternate rows of the suns is 3.5cm!!!


This stamps' Height is 37mm, you can see the suns, so distance between suns looks like smaller than 3.5cm

According to Bardi's book for RR2 this stamps is m/M, but Bardi also says that ray lenght is 12.5mm for RR2 in this stamps ray are 9mm long.

Here you can find a 1200dpi scan of the back.
Thanks
Sergio


Sergio,

the stamp has the direction of paper parallel to the short side of the stamp [26.5mm] so you need two stamps next to each other to be able to tell the 35mm distance between two alternate [vertical] rows!!

saludos, Rein
Avatar de Usuario
Rein
Usuario Colaborador
Usuario Colaborador
 
Mensajes: 6179
Registrado: 13 Mar 2009 15:59
Ubicación: Leiden, Netherlands

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor stamps9407 » 15 Feb 2012 21:50

Rein, I've measured the distance between two consecutive rows and twice this measure is quite close to 35mm. I will check with others if these 12.5mm of each ray told in Bardi's book is a mistake.

The below picture looks like an MI5 to me

pyri020tg_v01b_r2c2.jpg
MI5?


Do you agree?
Thanks
Sergio
stamps9407
Usuario Verificado
Usuario Verificado
 
Mensajes: 472
Registrado: 01 Mar 2009 18:58
Ubicación: Buenos Aires
Colecciono: Argentinas
Ordinarias en gral.
Inglaterra
España
Italia
Canje de Sellos: Si

Re: P&R I 20c Large Format Cattle

Notapor Rein » 16 Feb 2012 03:41

stamps9407 escribiste:Rein, I've measured the distance between two consecutive rows and twice this measure is quite close to 35mm. I will check with others if these 12.5mm of each ray told in Bardi's book is a mistake.

The below picture looks like an MI5 to me

Imagen

Do you agree?
Thanks
Sergio


Sergio,

YES!

In seeing the diagonal lines [blue by me] you do NOT need the high resolution to draw the lines!! Just project the image on your computer screen, take a screen grab and draw the lines using a programme like Paint in that screen grab! That is what I did! If you try to draw lines in the original file your eyes will NOT see the diagonals properly!

saludos, Rein
Avatar de Usuario
Rein
Usuario Colaborador
Usuario Colaborador
 
Mensajes: 6179
Registrado: 13 Mar 2009 15:59
Ubicación: Leiden, Netherlands

Anterior

Volver a Patriots and Resources I

¿Quién está conectado?

Usuarios navegando por este Foro: No hay usuarios registrados visitando el Foro y 1 invitado

cron