P&R I Departmental Officials

This sub-forum is dedicated to one of the most interesting and complex definitive series in 20th Century philately: the Argentina 1935-51 Definitives

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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por rubiera »

Jorge:

I think you are right about my ability to judge rarity, and in this case my bias comes from this stamp being the last one I needed. Can you help us on this?

thanks

tony
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
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blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por Rein »

It is a pity that the Pettigiani handbook does only give us a check-table without "prices"..... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por rubiera »

rubiera escribió:Jorge:

I think you are right about my ability to judge rarity, and in this case my bias comes from this stamp being the last one I needed. Can you help us on this?

thanks

tony

Jorge,

If you have good knowledge on the relative rarity of the departmentals, these are the questions I have:

Which ones are the scarcest used/mint/on cover?

I only base rarity on what I have, and as you point out, that can lead to a poor assessment of rarity. In my case I rank rarity this way:

1. 10c MG type I
2. 15c MH
3. 1p MM, all 1p with boundaries, all 50c, a few austrian 30c, 3c MM
4. the remaining 10c Type Is and the remaining 1p top and bottom overprint without boundaries
5. all remaining large format (25c, 30c)
6. 2c, 3c, 20c JMG and 20c MG
7. 10c type II
8. 5c offset and 1c
9. 5c typo

tony
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
http://www.somestamps.com/
blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
jorgec
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por jorgec »

Tony,

If you don't mind, I think I'd better reply in the spanish thread.
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

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jorgec escribió:Tony,

If you don't mind, I think I'd better reply in the spanish thread.
Jorge,

there is no reason why you should not tell the English readers what your thoughts are???

Or do you want me to translate it???
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por Rein »

Jorge,

having no experience with the Argentine philatelic market living in Europe, I can only speak about what I experience in laying my hands on certain stamps and the difficulty in finding some of them.

Judging by the prices of the PyR I ministerials in the GJ'010 all used stamps are priced between 0.20 and 0.50 with a few exceptions - some 1p con limites and the 10c type I with MG or MH! Looking at my Mello Teggia of 1998 the price range was likewise between 0.20 and 0.20, with the same exceptions - the 10c type I for MG and MH on 1.00! In MT 2009 the same prices have been tripled!

As 0.10 is the lowest GJ'10 gets, 0.20 - 0.50 is probably the type of price of which a stamp dealer is just about to open his cupboards with stockbooks without losing money having his shop open... The 0.10 price tag is just for small kids to encourage them to start collecting stamps?

So why are you reading us a lesson?

I am more than willing to buy 4 copies of the 10c MG for 20 euro! Can you help me???

to be continued ...
jorgec
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por jorgec »

Rein escribió:there is no reason why you should not tell the English readers what your thoughts are??? Or do you want me to translate it???
Rein, I answered in spanish not because I wanted to ignore english readers, but because I didn't want to ignore shanish readers. And also because other users (which might not understand english) could contribute and follow up to the subject.
So why are you reading us a lesson?
I am more than willing to buy 4 copies of the 10c MG for 20 euro! Can you help me???
I'm not sure I understand your point. I don't set catalog prices and I am not a dealer.

I agree that this stamp is rare, I said so already. I only said it is not extremely rare. And I also said that if you consider used stamps only, then it is not the rarest in this set.

Again, I'm not sure what are you trying to say here.
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por Rein »

jorgec escribió:
Rein escribió:there is no reason why you should not tell the English readers what your thoughts are??? Or do you want me to translate it???
Rein, I answered in spanish not because I wanted to ignore english readers, but because I didn't want to ignore shanish readers. And also because other users (which might not understand english) could contribute and follow up to the subject.
So why are you reading us a lesson?
I am more than willing to buy 4 copies of the 10c MG for 20 euro! Can you help me???
I'm not sure I understand your point. I don't set catalog prices and I am not a dealer.

I agree that this stamp is rare, I said so already. I only said it is not extremely rare. And I also said that if you consider used stamps only, then it is not the rarest in this set.

Again, I'm not sure what are you trying to say here.
Jorge,

now I know that you do not set the catalogue price as I could not know before who you are - in the sense of being a dealer or not - not knowing you full name.... OK, I assumed that a catalogue maker would be the first to know best what is rare and what can not [or hardly] be found in the market. You said that the market for these stamps is so small that there is no real balance between demand and supply.... At least that is how I understood your Spanish.

This happens more often now as the philatelic community is decreasing and real scarce stuff will not get the price it deserves [would have had in the larger community we once were]....

I would say that Tony's table is a fair mirror or reality though!

Imagen

And if you have a better "statistical" please come forward with it...
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

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Jorgec » 27.11.2010 01:45 escribió:
Tony,

Es bastante dificil medir la rareza de oficiales y ministeriales con precision. El problema es que es un mercado muy chico. Hay muy oferta y muy poca demanda. A esto sumale que en muchas epocas se los consideraba de segunda, y no se los estudiaba tanto. Por lo tanto es imposible hablar con precision como en el correo ordinario.

En general esta serie no es particularmente rara en comparacion a los ministeriales anteriores. Si hablamos de nuevo, o de combinado nuevo y usado, indudablemente que el tipo mas raro es el 10c MG tipo I. Es mas raro nuevo que usado. Hay otros valores escasos, pero ninguno es realmente raro (siempre hablando de nuevo y usado combinados).

Si hablamos de sellos usados (que es lo que a vos mas te interesa), el mas raro sea probablemente el 1P mapa sin limites MH sobrecarga arriba. Sin duda mas raro que el tipo I MG usado. La diferencia es que el 10c tipo I es bien raro en nuevo, y aca el 1P en nuevo, es muy comun. Por lo cual la rareza de esta mapa en combinado nuevo+usado, es muy baja.

Como ya hablamos, los sobres en todos los valores altos son bien raros, muy raros en los 1P y tambien en los de 50c.

Con respecto a si catalogar la rareza solamente por lo usado. Creo que ya hablamos del tema. Personalmente, yo no estoy de acuerdo. Pero si entiendo que alguien podria tomar una postura como la tuya. El problema mayor es que es casi imposible poder saber si un matasello de esta epoca es autentico o falso. Y si empezamos a valorarlos solamente en usados, aparecerian montones de matasellos falsos.
Jorge,

I am eager to find a recent publication on the earlier issues with the ministerials [JSM with or without dot for instance] with all details about the various types of paper these series have....

I know that Walter Bose had some publications but they were in 1931..... But after that???

Or am I just asking an utopical question???
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

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Having time to look at my ministerials and compare them with the description in Pettigiani!

Starting with the 5c Moreno in typography that has 3 [THREE] types of which 2 [TWO] only have ministerials! All are on English paper com ing from Wiggins Teape (Alex Pirie Mills) with parallel waternmark and a symmetrical paper wire!

Type I with the empty forehead:

Imagen
Imagen
Imagen
Imagen
Imagen

type I had been in use for just a few months! Do the other ministerials exist?????

to be continued ..
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

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Type II with the pointed forehead:

Imagen
Imagen
Imagen

Imagen

Imagen
Imagen
Imagen

to be continued ....
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por Rein »

MI is missing !

to be continued ....
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

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No the 5c Moreno in offset-litho that has just the first type and all the ministerials! All are on English paper coming from Wiggins Teape (Alex Pirie Mills) with parallel watermark and a symmetrical paper wire!

Type I with the empty forehead:

Imagen
Imagen
Imagen
Imagen
Imagen

to be continued ..
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por Rein »

Type I with the empty forehead:

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen
Imagen

to be continued ..
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Re: P&R I Departmental Officials

Mensaje por Rein »

For the 10c Rivadavia red in typography we have to take into account the various printings:

- type I in sheet-fed typography
- type II in sheet-fed typography
- type II in reel-fed typography [Goebel press]
- type IIa in reel-fed typography [Goebel press]
- type III in reel-fed typography [Goebel press]

I am not sure whether all Ministeries are present on all 5 series!

to be continued ....
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