P&R I 30c Wool

[rubiera]

Row 3 of the 30cMRC sheet


Every stamp in this row has the same characteristics.

[rubiera]

row 6 of the 30cMRC sheet


I find this variety on the first four stamps of this row.

[rubiera]

row 7 of the 30cMRC sheet


Every stamp in this row has the same characteristics.

[rubiera]

Other plate varieties in the 30cMRC sheet


Position 42



Position 47





These three are similar.

Position 83





Position 84





Position 85





The bottom left five positions show some plate wear.

Position 90





Position 91







Position 92







Position 93

[Rein]

Tony,

when I read these postings I thought that something could not be right! It was contradicting with what we had been posting here before and what pointed to a root block of 5x2 [as with the 50c and the 1p without borders] - a root blockof 10x1!!!

I had a better look at my ministerials and came up to a surprise!

My 1E1 blocks of 15 or 20 may originate from a root block of 10x1, but the 1E2 blocks rather have the 5x2 root block!

In: Retoques, errores y variedades de Proceres y Riquezas

The red and the green indicated dots repeat alternately; the blue ones are in every stamp!




The dot belongs to the back-ground colour:




The slash belongs to the back-ground colour:

to be continued ...

[Rein]

Plating a sheet of the 30cMRC

By sheer luck, this second sheet is from the other plate of 100. The previous incomplete sheet showed a 5 by 5 or half sheet symmetry. This one shows a column by column symmetry. With these two sheets I have plated 189 of the 200 positions in the early plate. Here are corner scans.

Tony,

Is this 1E1 or 1E2???

[rubiera]

The MH is 1E2 and the MRC is 1E1.

After these platings it is clear to me that the plates were constructed 'as needed' and not by a specific rule-e.g. 5 by 2. This was a very big job for the people manufacturing these plates and it seems normal that they built the plates as best they could in what must have been a short amount of time.

tony

[Rein]

The MH is 1E2 and the MRC is 1E1.

After these platings it is clear to me that the plates were constructed 'as needed' and not by a specific rule-e.g. 5 by 2. This was a very big job for the people manufacturing these plates and it seems normal that they built the plates as best they could in what must have been a short amount of time.

tony

Tony,

these are NOT plates as collectors know from the early recess engraving or typography period. Photomechanical reproduction plays the most important role here and that is why specific rules come out. Maybe the 10x1 root block was first [mainly 1E1] and the 5x2 was a bit later [1E2, my MH with 1E2 is 5x2; my MH with 1E1 is 10x1!] . The other values have 5x2 [from a certain point at least!]: 25c, 50c, 1P, 2P, 5P etc. It means we should watch out for other 1E1 that have a 10x1 rule - block of 4 or more or pairs [the longer side attached!] - as can be seen by repeating characteristics.

The 50c had the 5x2 rule already with the 1E1??? Not necessary, as the 10x1 can be a 5x1+5x1 [horizontally next to each other] or 5x2 as 5x1 and 5x1 on top !!

I should have a better look at the characteristics of the 30c you found and compare them with mine!

to be continued ....

[rubiera]

Then I need to learn more about how photo-mechanical printing works!

I think we are talking about a single plate of 200 for the 30c, one with 5x2 and one 10x1, and both were printed on 1E1 and 1E2. I see no reason why the 1936 plate for 1E1 would not have been used to print on the 1E2 paper.

tony

[Rein]

Then I need to learn more about how photo-mechanical printing works!

I think we are talking about a single plate of 200 for the 30c, one with 5x2 and one 10x1, and both were printed on 1E1 and 1E2. I see no reason why the 1936 plate for 1E1 would not have been used to print on the 1E2 paper.

tony

Tony,

my 1E2 blocks of the 30c MH all have the following arrangement!



probably the horizontal rows 2-6!

Believing Pettigiani c.s. the counter sheets were 10x10, but the printing sheets could have been 2 counter sheets big! Or maybe 4????

I have one exception to the rule that my 1E2 MH are all 5x2 and the 1E1 MH are 10x1!

to be continued ...

[rubiera]

Rein,

The beauty of this series is that just when I think I have something figured out, an exception pops up.

I stand by my statement that the job of designing these plates was done 'as needed,' and that means that we can find any configuration of repeatable positions that got the job done. Now we need to find these plate varieties on cover and with clear dates to figure out when the sheets printed from each plate were placed in circulation. I looked at all of my 1p covers, and could only find the 'four dots in white field' plate variety on a lone cover in 1940, even though there are five of this variety in the sheet of 100 I just worked on.

tony

[Rein]

Me tome el trabajo de estudiar y rendir un tipo examen para comprender la metodologia de trabajo de Rein y de Tony, tomo como ejemplo este tizado importado grueso norteamericano, clasificarlo por el tema de la simetria de la malla (que se ve bien tanto al frente como en el dorso con una buena luz rasante,son lineas en diagonales;alli comprendi (que me costo un poco) que esto se da por la disposicion del tramado de la malla, en especial los llamados "granulados"como dice Rein; mire en forma detallada todos los post de ambos , tanto el eje de enrollamiento (memoria del papel o trabajo del papel) y el porque Rein dice que solamente hay dos posiciones de filigrana, o es horizontal, o es ortogonal, espero que este bien como lo clasifique, Tony estuve mirando tus tablas y espero que esas sean las letras correspondientes, tomando el estudio de Dario Bardi se que tipo de sello es ,ahora me faltan ustedes para poder hablar en un mismo lenguaje...van los graficos...gracias y saludos...






javier

[Rein]

Javier,

congratulations for getting the diagonals visible!!!

So you agree the paper mesh is symmetrical! The line of AЯ is perpendicular to the the direction of paper hence an orthogonal (or perpendicular) watermark.

As to the same language of describing the paper! The Grueso has nothing to do with the thickness of the paper, the only thick thing are the "lines" visible at the front - see Bardi "rayado de líneas gruesas y más opacas"; you can see the same lines at the back - though not in your scan - see the green lines!



The number of green lines per centimeter is 16 instead of 20 for the Holandés for instance! Also I am not sure the paper comes from the USA!? Using the things we know for sure the paper is:

coated, orthogonal watermark with a symmetrical paper mesh AND a density of 30/16

everything else is speculation!

Similarly the Holandés (or Stinnes rather) is:

orthogonal watermark with a symmetrical paper mesh AND a density of 30/20

Should we be able to describe the letters AЯ better or measure the distances and diameters, these details can be added...

quoting Dario Bardi:

3.2. Tizado Grueso – Tizado Norteamericano Rayado Paralelo

Es un papel de procedencia norteamericana (de ahí que se lo conozca también con ese nombre) que aparece por primera vez a fines de 1941 y se lo utilizó hasta después de 1951. Presenta una trama abierta y visible donde se mezcla un rayado paralelo al renglón de RA con un granulado perpendicular al RA. Si se mira el sello con luz rasante predomina el rayado pero si se lo mira con bencina se ve claramente el granulado. El papel es de mediano espesor y tiene soles bien ovalados con diámetros de hasta 9,5 x 11 mm y eje de enrollamiento perpendicular al renglón de RA.- Pero la característica más interesante para los coleccionistas de Historia Postal es que si se observa el frente contra una fuente de luz rasante y por el lado perpendicular al RA, se notará un intenso rayado de líneas gruesas y más opacas, siempre paralelas al renglón de RA.

The "rayado" effect Bardi describes - quite rightly - was due to the low density of the mesh threads and NOT due to the asymmetrical paper mesh [and its distortion] we see at the later Rayado Vertical and Rayado Horizontal [also at the Rayos Rectos Nitidos].....

The TWO different interpretations of Rayado made Pettigiani lose sight completely in his Manual....

to be continued .....

[Rein]

The 30c Wool with brown fibers in the Wiggins Teape "Tela" paper - parallel watermark, symmetrical paper wire, density 24/22!







Not just brown, red and yellow as well!!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

The 30c Wool with brown fibers in the Wiggins Teape "Tela" paper - parallel watermark, symmetrical paper wire, density 24/22!







Not just brown, yellow as well!!

to be continued ...