The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
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The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown type IV in reel-fed typography
Types of paper and their first use [according to Pettigiani] and their relative scarceness:
TI 2 1942 normal "c" for both; This should be closer to 1945!
TI 3 1950 ascending "c' for both; descending "R" for both
TI 4 1949 ascending "c' for both; descending "R" for both
TI 5 1950 normal "R" for both; inverted "c" for both
Pettigiani mentions the design sizes: 26.8x20.3mm for the first printings [TI 1 and TI 2 partly] and 26.3x19.8mm for all later ones. My impression is that the 26.8x20.3mm goes with the types II/II and that type IV goes with the 26.3x19.8mm.
Somewhere in between June 1943 and 1947 when Tenorio Casal wrote his article a new cylinder for the 10c Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typography must have been made. We will find type IV from 1945 onwards! I would appreciated good scans of earlier than 1946 cancellations.
As important as the name tablet had been for distinguishing type I and II, the same goes for the new cylinder. They can be recognized by the different outlook of the left hand part of the name tablet:
The differences in sizes Pettigiani refers to coincide with my own observations. The size of the 10c had changed constantly. This time the width has come down to 19.5 [the first 10c red was 21.0mm wide!]. A quick measuring of the word "Bernardino" will result in 5.8 [originally 6.2mm!] will help.
The more characteristic feature is the "L" shaped appendix:
Types of paper and their first use [according to Pettigiani] and their relative scarceness:
TI 2 1942 normal "c" for both; This should be closer to 1945!
TI 3 1950 ascending "c' for both; descending "R" for both
TI 4 1949 ascending "c' for both; descending "R" for both
TI 5 1950 normal "R" for both; inverted "c" for both
Pettigiani mentions the design sizes: 26.8x20.3mm for the first printings [TI 1 and TI 2 partly] and 26.3x19.8mm for all later ones. My impression is that the 26.8x20.3mm goes with the types II/II and that type IV goes with the 26.3x19.8mm.
Somewhere in between June 1943 and 1947 when Tenorio Casal wrote his article a new cylinder for the 10c Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typography must have been made. We will find type IV from 1945 onwards! I would appreciated good scans of earlier than 1946 cancellations.
As important as the name tablet had been for distinguishing type I and II, the same goes for the new cylinder. They can be recognized by the different outlook of the left hand part of the name tablet:
The differences in sizes Pettigiani refers to coincide with my own observations. The size of the 10c had changed constantly. This time the width has come down to 19.5 [the first 10c red was 21.0mm wide!]. A quick measuring of the word "Bernardino" will result in 5.8 [originally 6.2mm!] will help.
The more characteristic feature is the "L" shaped appendix:
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Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Subject: El Rivadavia Castaño P y R I Pt. 395
The interesting thing is the "mate" where we expected the coated version!
methol63 escribió:aca voy de nuevo, (a veces me pregunto como no me canso de errarle)
tipografiado, mate, filigrana m, de letras separadas, A en punta, un leve rayado vertical
puede ser el Mate lustroso? Bardi no lo cataloga, pero pettigiani si,
The interesting thing is the "mate" where we expected the coated version!
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Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Subject: El Rivadavia Castaño P y R I Pt. 395
Merlo is right about the type of paper, but also is in doubt about the paper being uncoated, matt....Otin escribió:Estimada:
El papel y la filigrana de estos Rivadavias corresponde al tizado inglés grueso de la última época, es decir el rayado horizontal, que estoy comparando con mis ejemplares. Si efectivamente es papel mate es una tremenda rareza, desconocida hasta el presente. Mate lustroso NO ES, pues éste presenta un granulado vertical muy visible que aquí no aparece para nada.
Bardi no cataloga el mate lustroso en este sello porque me parece que cuando sacó su libro todavía no había sido encontrado o bien porque nunca lo tuvo y por tal razón no lo catalogó.
Por lo dicho habría que ver el sello en mano pues en esta tirada el tizado no es muy brilloso pero sí tiene una filigrana muy visible tal como aparece en el scan. La filigrana ilustrada en tu scan coincide en un todo con la del papel que corresponde al papel que yo digo que es. Lástima (es un decir) que los sellos tuyos parecen tener goma. pues si no la tuvieran verías con luz rasante el rayado paralelo al lado menor. muy notable.
Saludos,
Merlo
PD. Averiguo cuánto sale el franqueo del libro y te digo el importe a girar
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Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Two stamps in type V, orthogonal watermark with asymmetical wire structure in Wiggins Teape UNCOATED paper!
Just like Patricia has!
Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Rein. the time it tooks to you to find the uncoated paper is amazing!!! Fortunately the handstamp of the first scan clearly shows it was circulated during 1951. I´ll look up in my stock of copies (some 600) and try to find one.
Javier Morillas found in the archives of the Ministry of Economy a complaint from the Casa de Moneda to Gerdhart Loeber for they sent some rolls of uncoated paper among those that should be coated according to tender terms. These rolls gave birth to the "mate lustroso".
Now, considering Patricia enquiry and your finding, it is hard t believe that WT&AP made such a "mistake". Moreover it´s also hard to believe that none of the Argentinean "experts" had no notice of such paper variety. I´m startled. I´ll see what Mocatelli says when I tell him of this finding. Surely he will weant to see those stamps. If Patricia reads English here goes my congratulations!!!
José
Javier Morillas found in the archives of the Ministry of Economy a complaint from the Casa de Moneda to Gerdhart Loeber for they sent some rolls of uncoated paper among those that should be coated according to tender terms. These rolls gave birth to the "mate lustroso".
Now, considering Patricia enquiry and your finding, it is hard t believe that WT&AP made such a "mistake". Moreover it´s also hard to believe that none of the Argentinean "experts" had no notice of such paper variety. I´m startled. I´ll see what Mocatelli says when I tell him of this finding. Surely he will weant to see those stamps. If Patricia reads English here goes my congratulations!!!
José
Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Rein. the time it tooks to you to find the uncoated paper is amazing!!! Fortunately the handstamp of the first scan clearly shows it was circulated during 1951. I´ll look up in my stock of copies (some 600) and try to find one.
Javier Morillas found in the archives of the Ministry of Economy a complaint from the Casa de Moneda to Gerdhart Loeber for they sent some rolls of uncoated paper among those that should be coated according to tender terms. These rolls gave birth to the "mate lustroso".
Now, considering Patricia enquiry and your finding, it is hard t believe that WT&AP made such a "mistake". Moreover it´s also hard to believe that none of the Argentinean "experts" had no notice of such paper variety. I´m startled. I´ll see what Mocatelli says when I tell him of this finding. Surely he will weant to see those stamps. If Patricia reads English here goes my congratulations!!!
José
Javier Morillas found in the archives of the Ministry of Economy a complaint from the Casa de Moneda to Gerdhart Loeber for they sent some rolls of uncoated paper among those that should be coated according to tender terms. These rolls gave birth to the "mate lustroso".
Now, considering Patricia enquiry and your finding, it is hard t believe that WT&AP made such a "mistake". Moreover it´s also hard to believe that none of the Argentinean "experts" had no notice of such paper variety. I´m startled. I´ll see what Mocatelli says when I tell him of this finding. Surely he will weant to see those stamps. If Patricia reads English here goes my congratulations!!!
José
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Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
José.Otin escribió:Rein. the time it tooks to you to find the uncoated paper is amazing!!! Fortunately the handstamp of the first scan clearly shows it was circulated during 1951. I´ll look up in my stock of copies (some 600) and try to find one.
Javier Morillas found in the archives of the Ministry of Economy a complaint from the Casa de Moneda to Gerdhart Loeber for they sent some rolls of uncoated paper among those that should be coated according to tender terms. These rolls gave birth to the "mate lustroso".
Now, considering Patricia enquiry and your finding, it is hard t believe that WT&AP made such a "mistake". Moreover it´s also hard to believe that none of the Argentinean "experts" had no notice of such paper variety. I´m startled. I´ll see what Mocatelli says when I tell him of this finding. Surely he will weant to see those stamps. If Patricia reads English here goes my congratulations!!!
José
What Javier has found confirms that "mate lustroso" was Dutch?!?!?!!?! Gerhard Loeber being our man in Amsterdam, the Netherlands....
saludos, Rein
Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Rein, he does!!!
José
José
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Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
José,Otin escribió:Rein, he does!!!
José
So we have a Loeber-Argentina tradition for almost 20 years! From AlPaMij onwards!
saludos, Rein
Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Rein: not also that! Loeber sold unwatermarked paper before San Martín con punto issue. As a matter of fact that paper was used from 1921 onwards till the appearance of wmk Sol RA.
José
José
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Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
José,Otin escribió:Rein: not also that! Loeber sold unwatermarked paper before San Martín con punto issue. As a matter of fact that paper was used from 1921 onwards till the appearance of wmk Sol RA.
José
so this is Loeber as well!
http://www.galeoptix.nl/fila/argentina/ ... gra_04.htm
saludos, Rein
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Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Thank you José, I do not know if La Plata, anyone ever know of paper, i can ask my daughter to bring me the stamps in question on Saturday as to find someone with more experience than the see here
And I regret my very bad english
Patricia
And I regret my very bad english
Patricia
Toda acumulación, tiene el beneplácito de la ignorancia,al convertirse en una colección, se sufren dolorosamente las faltas... PATRICIA
Re: The 10 cent Rivadavia chestnut-brown in typo - type IV
Patricia: no conozco en la Plata especialistas en papeles. Si los hay en Lomas de Zamora, en el centro filatélico de ese nombre, Av. H. Yrigoyen 8428, piso 1º. Se reúnen los sábados por la tarde y ahí el Ing. Gómez puede dar una opinión valedera. Este sábado hay un congreso filatélico en Ituzaingó y probablemente no esté la gente indicada. Por lo tanto esperemos otra ocasión propicia.
José
José